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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#92576: Dec 17th 2018 at 12:50:42 PM

Edited because topic dropped.

Edited by Guy01 on Dec 17th 2018 at 4:46:07 AM

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#92577: Dec 17th 2018 at 12:51:25 PM

>Huh so its a double standard then. >Alright what about a female villain choking a guy or a woman?

Look it's not double standard and even I know that

Just drop the topic before you say something even more foolish

Edited by Ultimatum on Dec 17th 2018 at 12:52:00 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#92578: Dec 17th 2018 at 12:53:42 PM

Alright tropic dropped then.

Moving on.

So Miles Morales is implied to exist in the MCU right?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Zanthype from The Tardis Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#92579: Dec 17th 2018 at 12:54:29 PM

The issue is that, as was explained earlier, choking is a huge real-life red flag that an abusive partner will kill their victim. It's something that women in real life have to fear and deal with every day. It doesn't help that comics have a nasty history of using violence against women in exploitative and tone def ways. That's why we have fridging.

"In 900 years of time and space I've never met anyone who wasn't important."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#92580: Dec 17th 2018 at 12:55:18 PM

EDIT: Removed because topic dropped.

Yup, Aaron mentions his nephew in Homecoming.

It might be curious to see Donald Glover as the Prowler, as MCU Aaron Davis was portrayed as relatively harmless and well-intentioned, while comics Prowler is quite a tough guy in and out of costume.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Dec 17th 2018 at 12:59:35 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#92581: Dec 17th 2018 at 12:59:40 PM

I'm curious when & how he will finally come down proper.

Sure it won't happen for a long, long, looooooooong time till Spidey becomes a veteran and this at an age to be able to mentor people but its a fun thought.

I assume Spidey might enter a pseudo-retirement once Miles becomes capable enough depending on how old he is.

[up] It certainly be one hell of a badass upgrade since yeah he's nowhere as dangerous or malicious as Aaron normally is.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 17th 2018 at 1:02:42 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Zanthype from The Tardis Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#92582: Dec 17th 2018 at 1:01:38 PM

Donald Glover was kind of strange in that role. I mean this in the nicest way possible, but did he seem kind of out of it to anyone else? He slurred some of his sentences and just sounded kind of tired/tipsy. I wasn't sure how I was supposed to interpret that. Is the character drinking? High?

"In 900 years of time and space I've never met anyone who wasn't important."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#92583: Dec 17th 2018 at 1:36:05 PM

I think the idea was that he is just very nonchalant and casual about everything to the point of stoicness. This is best seen when Spidey goes to threaten him and he doesn't seem even mildly impressed by it.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92584: Dec 17th 2018 at 3:26:30 PM

I wonder if he'll show up again, but with the Prowler costume — like, he's has to upgrade since there's more superheroes around.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#92585: Dec 17th 2018 at 3:43:21 PM

Yeah the Glover role was....weird, maybe is playing against role: Im so acustone of him being the hyper active friend of Abed in Comunity than seen him as slow stoic is.....odd.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
ComicFan Since: Sep, 2016
#92586: Dec 17th 2018 at 4:35:16 PM

Infinity War, Ant-Man & The Wasp, and Black Panther made it on the Oscar shortlist[1]

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#92587: Dec 17th 2018 at 4:51:27 PM

....ok what. No way Infinity War was as good as Black Panther. Competent, yes. But as an overall cohesive story? No.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#92588: Dec 17th 2018 at 4:55:27 PM

I thought it was better than Black Panther, specifically in how well-told its story and narrative was. Parts of Black Panther were sloppy.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#92589: Dec 17th 2018 at 4:55:36 PM

Eh, it’s money at work.

I’m more surprised about Ant-Man and The Wasp on there, but it’ll probably not make the final list. Well, they say it’s the nomination that counts.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Dec 17th 2018 at 4:55:52 AM

MegaJ Since: Oct, 2009
#92590: Dec 17th 2018 at 4:57:15 PM

Visual Effects wise at least.

I would make the argument that Infinity War along with Enter the Spider-Verse deserve to be at the very least shortlisted for Best Picture along with Black Panther.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#92591: Dec 17th 2018 at 5:00:06 PM

I don't think that Black Panther had a perfect story, but I think it told it better than Infinity War, honestly.

Oh God! Natural light!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#92592: Dec 17th 2018 at 5:02:46 PM

It’s no contest to me; Black Panther wins. I liked parts of Infinity War, but it didn’t even have 3 acts.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Dec 17th 2018 at 5:03:12 AM

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#92593: Dec 17th 2018 at 5:13:35 PM

Not gonna turn this into a pissing contest. 3 MCU films are up there, so I'm gonna root for them equally.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#92594: Dec 17th 2018 at 5:19:39 PM

Infinity War is one of the most creative and interestingly plotted movies I've ever seen. It takes the standard Heroes Journey formula, and flips it on its head, making the villain into the protagonist of the movie is a brilliant move. The way it balances three storylines between the heroes: Steve on Earth, Tony in space, and Thor getting his hammer, gives the film a defined flow and narrative, even with the masses of characters involved. I wouldn't be surprised if Infinity War is used as material in film writing classes in the future.

Black Panther is practically pedestrian and paint-by-numbers in comparison. It's a great film, but it's not nearly as interesting as Infinity War is, from a film-making point of view.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 17th 2018 at 6:21:33 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#92595: Dec 17th 2018 at 5:30:22 PM

Agree to disagree on BP being “pedestrian.” Mainly because I don’t think I can respond without losing my temper.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#92596: Dec 17th 2018 at 5:39:26 PM

It takes the standard Heroes Journey formula, and flips it on its head, making the villain into the protagonist of the movie is a brilliant move.

Thanos is not the protagonist of Infinity War. Not at all structurally.

A Hero's (or Villain's) Journey is characterized by several key actions undertaken by the protagonist: the Point of Attack, the Refusal of the Call, the Ironic Crisis, and the Momentous Decision. (There are more but these are the most important ones.) Some of these decisions are made by the characters in Infinity War, though scattered about so that few get to progress through multiple of these steps. Thanos completes none of them. At best, he only undergoes the Ironic Crisis and that's it.

The protagonists of Infinity War's various subplots are Thor, Tony Stark, Vision, and Gamora.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Dec 17th 2018 at 5:41:35 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#92597: Dec 17th 2018 at 5:48:34 PM

The key character moments for Thanos during Infinity War are his sacrifice of Gamora and his honesty in victory. These are villainous traits, not heroic ones.

"Honesty" is the best way I can put it, really. He's got a genuine ideology and a sincere belief that what he is doing will make the universe better. He doesn't regard the Avengers as evil, just obstacles that he needs to overcome to get what he wants. He doesn't try to rule the universe or destroy it; he's not vindictive or petty in his victory. He doesn't gloat. When he's done, he hangs up his armor and retires.

His chance to abandon his course is when he claims the Soul Stone. If he was in any way redeemable, it was then*. Past that point he's an unstoppable force, and the Avengers fail to unite in a way that could have beaten him. They're divided, uncoordinated, each seemingly bound up in their own personal struggles while they fight. Their defeat is inevitable.

Thanos made his sacrifice for victory. In Endgame, what sacrifice will the Avengers make to restore the universe?

*I include here the possibility that he ends up regretting his actions in Endgame. It's not like he's going to just hand over the Infinity Gauntlet when the heroes show up at his doorstep... although that would be pretty daring of the writers to attempt. I don't think he's going to be the ultimate villain, though. We've been handed too many subversions of traditional heroic narratives for the story to return to formula now.

Edited by Fighteer on Dec 17th 2018 at 8:52:18 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#92598: Dec 17th 2018 at 5:50:15 PM

With all respect to Joseph Campbell, the archetypical heroic plot does not, to the letter, have to follow the very specific benchmarks in a very specific way. They often do, but it's not an absolute.

On the other hand, I don't particularly see Thanos' plotline as a hero's journey either. I could arguably see it as such if we ever see his origins, but we don't. He starts out on top and falls gradually throughout the plot, but is characterized as never losing sight of his goal regardless of the blight it causes, which is something different entirely. With the right argument, I could buy him as a Byronic Hero.

But more to the point regardless, and on the other, other hand, a character doesn't have to be doing the hero's journey thing to be the protagonist of a story in the first place.

There's two ways of looking at Infinity War: one seeing with Thanos as protagonist, with his principal conflict being to "save" the universe by collecting the stones and the heroes as the antagonists preventing him from doing so, along the way forcing him to make sacrifices and risk himself to obtain that goal - this path relies on Dramatic Irony: the audience knowing that his goal is wrong and that his eventual success is a bad thing, but being invested in that success anyway. The other way is seeing it as a collection of connected, concurrently occuring tales in which various heroes and groups of protagonists face Thanos in similar storylines, with the twist of each storyline being they all end in defeat whereas narrative tradition would see victory: this path relies on the defiance of audience expectation entirely.

There's a good case to be made that the movie was attempting to do both, and... eh... I'm of the opinion that while Infinity War is a great freaking film, the repetitiveness of the latter and the limited exposure to Thanos except when used in the latter (exposure being necessary for the former, but which only really happens during the Soul Stone scenes) both bring down the film's attempts to mix the two kinds of story. The repetitiveness, especially, makes things drag on - it could have used maybe one less permutation of the same plotline.

I'd say as far as solid film plots go, Black Panther is better: in a similar sense to how Iron Man 1 is less ambitious story-wise (though Black Panther is far more ambitious premise-wise) but focuses on being a solid experience and thus is one of the MCU's best.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 17th 2018 at 6:09:01 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#92599: Dec 17th 2018 at 5:53:31 PM

[up] I'll stipulate that Infinity War is a subversion of the traditional heroic narrative, but it is by no means an inversion. From a purely structural perspective, Black Panther may have been a better film, but it's hard to argue that the stakes could have been higher for IW.

Edited by Fighteer on Dec 17th 2018 at 8:54:21 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#92600: Dec 17th 2018 at 5:55:24 PM

I like Infinity War more in spite of its issues because I'm a sucker for crossovers but Black Panther is definitely the better movie.

This song needs more love.

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