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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#92401: Dec 13th 2018 at 10:43:10 AM

See, that's a little promising. I still don't want to get my hopes up too much, though. They were still just cancelled, with more cancellations (probably) still on the way.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#92402: Dec 13th 2018 at 10:43:55 AM

Marvel could theoretically make their own version of Daredevil that doesn't infringe on the Netflix series's copyright, while still using the same actors and maintaining continuity, yes. But I still don't see why it would be worth the hassle.

It's not just that you'd need a team of lawyers poring over every line of dialogue, every set used, and every piece of costume design to clear it for use. It's also that a lot of the most significant events in the characters' lives have already been covered by the three Netflix seasons, and further exploration of the characters would be unable to reference those events in any but the vaguest of ways.

Do you want to show Matt Murdock interacting with Foggy, Karen, the Kingpin, the Punisher, Bullseye, Elektra, Stick, and the Hand? Well, you'd have to script it in such a way that these characters still have this big, complicated history with each other, yet with no details of their time together on the Netflix shows being referenced.

Like, if they want to bring Elektra back and have a reunion between her and Matt: how would they explain her return, and delve into the complicated feelings they must have after their last encounter, without referencing anything that happened in The Defenders?

Or, if they want to use Kingpin again: how do they write him back in after the way he was defeated in Season 3, without referencing anything that happened in Season 3 beyond "Daredevil fought the Kingpin"?

Such a story could be done, but it would be hamstrung by so many restrictions, I'm not really seeing why it would be worth doing.

Maybe Marvel doesn't want to break with the continuity of the Netflix shows; I can understand that. But if that's the case, it seems like the best thing to do would be to just not use the Netflix characters anymore (unless its for a small guest appearance, like Dr. Strange in Thor: Ragnarok).

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92403: Dec 13th 2018 at 10:51:20 AM

It's not just that you'd need a team of lawyers poring over every line of dialogue, every set used, and every piece of costume design to clear it for use. It's also that a lot of the most significant events in the characters' lives have already been covered by the three Netflix seasons, and further exploration of the characters would be unable to reference those events in any but the vaguest of ways.
Not really. They can reference any of the events that come directly from the comics — when Ultimate Spider-Man happened, they could still include all the characters and events from Spectacular Spider-Man, because those characters and events are not owned by Sony.

For instance: Elektra's death and resurrection are not owned by Netflix. Sure, they will have to keep it vague, but they can clearly say "The Hand resurrected Elektra" because, hey, that's from the comics. They can say Matt put away the Kingpin, that the Kingpin knows Matt's identity, etc. Netflix doesn't own those things.

Or, if they want to use Kingpin again: how do they write him back in after the way he was defeated in Season 3, without referencing anything that happened in Season 3 beyond "Daredevil fought the Kingpin"?
They don't need to. Just show him in jail plotting to get out. That's enough.

Edited by alliterator on Dec 13th 2018 at 10:52:11 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#92404: Dec 13th 2018 at 11:03:26 AM

What this ultimately boils down to is that it's just not worth the legal hassle. Specifically, any legal hassle, because the alternative is to just make their own shows without any legal hassle. When one option is hassle-free, any amount of hassle for the other option is too much hassle.

Charlie Cox played a cool DareDevil, but I have no delusions about him being the only actor on the face of the planet who could ever play a cool DareDevil. And it's not like the Netflix shows were flawless; there was a lot of room for each of them to improve and quite a few things that the MCU is just plain better off without.

It's not like this is exactly without precedent, either. Remember that time Marvel made an Inhumans show and it sucked so hard and then nobody ever spoke of it again? Would anyone pitch a fit if they announced a new Inhumans project and conspicuously pretended that other show never happened?

End of the day, the shows are just supplemental materials. They're like the tie-in comics; cool to have around and if you like them, you like them. But to the studio, they aren't exactly a hill worth dying on.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 13th 2018 at 12:04:22 PM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92405: Dec 13th 2018 at 11:06:09 AM

Remember that time Marvel made an Inhumans show and it sucked so hard and then nobody ever spoke of it again? Would anyone pitch a fit if they announced a new Inhumans project and conspicuously pretended that other show never happened?
Nobody would pitch a fit because it had almost zero fans and zero connection to any other show (even Agents of SHIELD). The difference, then, is that Marvel Netflix shows do have many fans.

As for the rights issues, this is what I remember: Marvel produced the show, while Netflix had distribution rights to it. Both contributed money to the show, but, overall, the show was wholly owned by Marvel, but they just couldn't distribute it outside of Netflix. This is probably why Netflix cancelled it — because they want shows that they themselves own, not just distribute.

End of the day, the shows are just supplemental materials.
And this is where I completely disagree.

Edited by alliterator on Dec 13th 2018 at 11:08:52 AM

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#92406: Dec 13th 2018 at 11:12:09 AM

They can reference Elektra being killed and then resurrected by the Hand, but as far as I'm aware, the whole Midland Circle fight has no parallel in the comics, and it'd be super-weird to have the characters meet again without discussing what happened there.

Also, yeah, if Marvel recast and rebooted all the Netflix characters now, a lot of fans of those shows would be upset. But ten years from now, when the memory of those shows has dimmed considerably? Doubt there'd be much backlash.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#92407: Dec 13th 2018 at 11:17:54 AM

I'll agree with Tobias here: much as I loved some of the show, at the end of the day they're just side-dishes, and all of this legal mess is way too much effort for what is essentially a fancy spin-off.

Though I'm confused about where the hell did Tobias watched an Inhumans show. What, next you're gonna say there's a Tsukihime anime?

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92408: Dec 13th 2018 at 11:21:14 AM

But ten years from now, when the memory of those shows has dimmed considerably? Doubt there'd be much backlash.
Generally, people don't take a "ten year view" in terms of movies and TV shows. But sure, you could say that and you could say the same thing about rebooting Iron Man and Captain America. People would be upset now, but in ten years, they wouldn't care. You could say that about pretty much anything.

Also point: Cloak and Dagger, a show that airs on Freefom, made a direct reference to a character from the Marvel Netflix shows (Misty Knight). So that's a connection to a show outside of Netflix. Heck, I bet if they wanted to, Cloak and Dagger could even use the same actress as Misty Knight on their show without any rights issues.

Edited by alliterator on Dec 13th 2018 at 11:22:26 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#92409: Dec 13th 2018 at 11:32:16 AM

There is no legal hassle. We are not talking about some hotchpotch contract Marvel made while under the threat of bankruptcy. We are talking about a more or less standard contract between a production studio (Marvel) and Netflix. And that means: Netflix owns distribution rights, NOT the rights to the TV show itself.

So, based on what we know, Netflix had the exclusive right to buy new seasons of the TV show if it wanted to, it retains the distribution rights to the season it bought and aired, and Marvel isn't able to continue those shows for two years after the cancellation.

And that's it. After that, Marvel can do whatever it wants. Netflix does NOT own the rights to this version of the character, it only has the distribution rights for the season it ordered.

[up] Ao S also had a reference to the Netflix shows. It was in a newsticker in the background, but it was there.

Edited by Swanpride on Dec 13th 2018 at 11:33:13 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92410: Dec 13th 2018 at 12:43:12 PM

Ahem, other examples of characters that were used by other shows after their own show was cancelled:

  • John Constantine appeared on both Arrow and then became a main character on Legends of Tomorrow after his own show, Constantine was cancelled. Note: Constantine is played by the same actor and his own show aired on NBC, while Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow air on the CW. There was no legal ramifications at all.
  • The recent "Elseworlds" crossover brought back the 1990's Flash into the current day Arrowverse. The '90s Flash show aired in CBS, while the current Arrowverse shows all air on the CW. No legal problems at all. (You might say that's because the CW is co-owned by CBS, but all of the Arrowverse shows are owned by the WB.)

Edited by alliterator on Dec 13th 2018 at 1:00:14 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#92411: Dec 13th 2018 at 12:52:21 PM

Other example of a show which started on one network and finished on a different one: Babylon 5. And that is just an example on top of my mind. Hell, Netflix itself started by "rescuing" shows up for cancellation.

Edited by Swanpride on Dec 13th 2018 at 12:52:43 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#92412: Dec 13th 2018 at 1:16:46 PM

[up][up] Both of those were big deals when they happened, with Constantine especially being the subject of some lack of surety over whether it would happen.

CW had to go out of their way to make those happen, they couldn’t just do that. And not every studio is willing to go those extra steps.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 13th 2018 at 1:18:02 AM

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#92413: Dec 13th 2018 at 1:29:19 PM

Specially considering that, different from Marvel, CW knew her TV shows were never going to crossover with the movies (which is better for them, even if I think her shows are all trash), so they had to make sure this little Shared Universe of hers could stand on its own two feet.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92414: Dec 13th 2018 at 1:35:44 PM

Both of those were big deals when they happened, with Constantine especially being the subject of some lack of surety over whether it would happen.
They were big deals because it had never happened before, but I don't remember reading anything where there was a "lack of surety" of whether they would happen. There was just an announcement that, yes, Constantine would appear on Arrow (in fact, here's the announcement). And with '90s Flash, there wasn't even an announcement, he just showed up in the trailer.

Specially considering that, different from Marvel, CW knew her TV shows were never going to crossover with the movies (which is better for them, even if I think her shows are all trash), so they had to make sure this little Shared Universe of hers could stand on its own two feet.
I mean, the movies can stand on their own two feet, too. So can Agents of SHIELD. Doesn't mean the characters can make appearances in both or get their own shows again?

CW had to go out of their way to make those happen
I mean, yes, but not that far, considering that the WB owns the character. And again: it wouldn't take that much for Marvel to give the Netflix Marvel characters cameos in other projects, too. You seem to be assuming that Marvel doesn't want to make any effort at all.

Edited by alliterator on Dec 13th 2018 at 1:44:06 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#92415: Dec 13th 2018 at 1:41:40 PM

The CW is a she?

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92416: Dec 13th 2018 at 1:49:25 PM

The closest thing I can compare the MCU to is the Arrowverse — an interconnected universe of movies (the MCU) and an interconnected universe of shows (Arrowverse). There is really nothing else like either. Sure, there are movie franchises and shows that have spin-offs, but both the MCU and the Arrowverse are universes (or multiverses) that have interconnected parts. The MCU has it's crossover movies, while the Arrowverse has it's annual crossover events.

So, again, if the Arrowverse can incorporate characters that appeared on shows from other networks, I don't see the problem with the MCU doing it. Heck, they don't even need to reference the Netflix shows — Constantine never references stuff that happened in his NBC show and that show ended with quite a big cliffhanger.

So, in conclusion: If Marvel outright owns the Netflix shows (which they do), they just can't distribute them, what's to stop them from using the characters again?

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#92417: Dec 13th 2018 at 2:08:57 PM

Exactly. If this two year rule exist, well, they have to wait a little bit, but that's all.

Now the question is what Feige will eventually do. I admit though: I am not in a hurry to see more of the Netflix heroes. I feel a creative pause would be good for the characters and if they pick them up again, it would be kind of interesting to see them aged a few years.

But I really, really want a proper conclusion to Agent Carter....

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#92418: Dec 13th 2018 at 2:11:49 PM

Should focus on other heroes.

Bring in Moon Knight.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92419: Dec 13th 2018 at 2:13:13 PM

I really want to see the Tournament of Heaven arc for Iron Fist. They were leading up to it with the second season, but we never actually got to see it.

By the way, a character from a cancelled show will probably be appearing on another Netflix show: Mike Colter recently made a comment on an Instagram post from Krysten Ritter that indicated he's going to be showing up in Jessica Jones Season 3.

Bring in Moon Knight.
Considering that there will soon be no more Marvel Netflix shows, I have no idea if they can even do an R-rated version of Moon Knight. I believe that they want Disney+ to be PG-13, which, okay, but could they do R-rated shows on Hulu?

Edited by alliterator on Dec 13th 2018 at 2:14:57 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#92420: Dec 13th 2018 at 2:13:54 PM

Silverclaw…

But honestly, they have so many characters to mine. Let's just enjoy the ride.

[up] Yep, I want to see that particular storyline for Iron-Fist, too. With Ward thrown in the mix.

Edited by Swanpride on Dec 13th 2018 at 2:14:40 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92421: Dec 13th 2018 at 2:16:18 PM

You know, if they ever do a Secret Avengers movie, they could totally include Moon Knight and some of the Netflix heroes (I'm thinking the Punisher). It would be a few years in the future, of course, but it could also lead into their own shows.

Edited by alliterator on Dec 13th 2018 at 2:16:59 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#92422: Dec 13th 2018 at 2:18:58 PM

Silverclaw would make such a good movie.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#92423: Dec 13th 2018 at 2:19:22 PM

Considering that they are now spending a lot of time to set up the Scrulls, Secret Invasion might be in the cards..

Edited by Swanpride on Dec 13th 2018 at 2:19:48 AM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#92424: Dec 13th 2018 at 2:47:27 PM

A tv show about Moon Knight would be a good way to at least mitigate the bad taste in my mouth over losing the best superhero tv show ever made and also quite possibly the best comic book adaptation ever made (Daredevil).

I don't actually think Moon Knight necessitates a R-Rating, but he'd definitely be a hard PG-13 allá Person of Interest or Legion. Legion is actually the best analogue, given it's also experimental and deals with mental health.

My biggest problem with Moon Knight is more that his rogues gallery is abysmal.

Edited by Gaon on Dec 13th 2018 at 2:48:12 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92425: Dec 13th 2018 at 2:57:24 PM

My biggest problem with Moon Knight is more that his rogues gallery is abysmal.
Hey, he's got Roaul Bushman! And Black Spectre (no, wait, he's dead)! And...um...the Midnight Man? (No, wait, he's dead, too.) Let's face it, the biggest enemy of Moon Knight is himself. Literally.

I did once come up with a television show pitch for what I would consider an awesome Moon Knight show.


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