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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#92376: Dec 13th 2018 at 2:18:54 AM

The people who watch the Marvel shows are Marvel's core audience. They are the ones who create the hype. It is the last group Marvel wants to p... off.

They will figure it out.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#92377: Dec 13th 2018 at 3:04:03 AM

I think it is for the best to simply accept that the Defenders (+ Punisher) are dead until further notice.

They've been Snapped, that's all there is to it, take it as another reason to go watch Endgame and see Thanos getting the shit kicked out of him.

Edited by HailMuffins on Dec 13th 2018 at 8:05:11 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#92378: Dec 13th 2018 at 3:18:14 AM

[up][up][up] Look at how much the movies are grossing world wide, especially the big ones like Infinity War and compare it to the Netflix Marvel viewership. Said viewership has decreased over the years (there is a sad reason these shows are cancelled after all) while the movie viewership couldn't be higher, with all these future products coming up.

Also, if that many knew about the shows, why do you think they were not allowed to influence the movies?

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#92379: Dec 13th 2018 at 3:30:56 AM

The reason why the movies rarely pick up something from the movies is simply because it is not practical, especially when it comes to the Netflix shows which are, after all, lagging behind the time-line of the movies. Ao S still gets the information it needs to acknowledge the films, because that is the one show which moves in the same speed the movies do.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#92380: Dec 13th 2018 at 3:38:20 AM

Yes its not practical because the casual movie fan would be confused on why the hell Phil Coulson is suddenly alive and well again and who all of his teammates are.

Look, I mean I get you. I love Agents too, just like I love the Defenders bunch. But the point is not the quality, the point is that these shows are simply not universally well known enough to warrant a crossover/acknowledgement. The number of viewers for the movies and the shows are simply not comparable. Why is that so hard to accept?

Edited by Forenperser on Dec 13th 2018 at 12:38:47 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#92381: Dec 13th 2018 at 3:53:50 AM

[up] Why is it so hard to accept that even a little watched part of the MCU can still be part of the MCU? And that those people who would be interested in seeing a Daredevil movie would also go and watch the Daredevil TV show?

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#92382: Dec 13th 2018 at 4:34:24 AM

That...wasn't my point? Off course the shows are still part of the MCU. But being part of the same franchise and crossing over between mediums are 2 different things. Take Star Wars for example. The Clone Wars and Rebels are canon too, yet they did not crossover with any movies for the very same reasons above.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#92383: Dec 13th 2018 at 4:50:47 AM

We are currently discussing the question if it is smarter to keep the current actors for future projects involving those characters or not, right? I would say: Yes.

So, would it make sense to make a huge movie with them while working with the expectation that everyone watching it has seen the shows? No. But nobody claimed that this is what Marvel should do.

But they have still a lot of options. They can have Matt Murdock turn up as random blind lawyer in any property, without the need to explain ANYTHING. They can do a soft reboot of the Netflix shows down the line.

We just have to wait and see.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92384: Dec 13th 2018 at 6:41:28 AM

The people who watch the Marvel shows are Marvel's core audience. They are the ones who create the hype. It is the last group Marvel wants to p... off.
Why would hiring the same actor as the Netflix show piss off the fans of Marvel movies? I don't understand your logic.

Also, you haven't answered my question: why wouldn't Marvel hire the same actors? After all, it's easier and cheaper to go with actors that they already know are good, then try to find actors that might not work. And hiring different actors would piss off a small contingent of fans in the process — and if they don't have to piss off any fans, why would they want to? Marvel likes to please the all fans if they can.

Again: they have carefully made sure that nothing in the movies contradicts any of the shows, so why start now?

Edited by alliterator on Dec 13th 2018 at 6:43:13 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#92385: Dec 13th 2018 at 7:24:41 AM

[up] That is not what I said???? You do realize I am exactly on the other side of the argument, right?

Edited by Swanpride on Dec 13th 2018 at 7:25:32 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92386: Dec 13th 2018 at 8:31:08 AM

Sorry, I thought you were the other person. My mistake.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#92387: Dec 13th 2018 at 9:48:54 AM

I missed this part of the convo, but if they cast Charlie Cox as Daredevil, who’s to say they’re not adapting Netflix’ Daredevil? Because you can bet Netflix’ lawyers will.

That’s the big problem - you don’t get it as much with voice actors, but it’s one of the primary reasons new versions of the same character are often recast: the actors are a big aspect of the characters’ live action identity.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 13th 2018 at 9:50:51 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92388: Dec 13th 2018 at 9:54:54 AM

but if they cast Charlie Cox as Daredevil, who’s to say they’re not adapting Netflix’ Daredevil? Because you can bet Netflix’ lawyers will
Netflix doesn't own the character, though. There is nothing Netflix can do if Marvel wants to hire Charlie Cox again, except protest that Cox is associated with Netflix's Daredevil. But then again, they probably won't even do that, because they want people to keep watching their shows and hiring the same actors will help that.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#92389: Dec 13th 2018 at 10:00:28 AM

Charlie Cox isn’t Daredevil, the character. He’s he person who represented the character in Netflix’ series, and is integral to the visual and emotional identity of that version of the character.

Netflix can absolutely sue over it. They absolutely have grounds to start a lawsuit, at least. They probably don’t have grounds to win one, but that doesn’t matter. Disney could probably win most lawsuits a person or group might level at them, but that doesn’t mean they want to do it. Why would they bother with the risk of legal kerfluffle, when they could avoid the possibility altogether by simply recasting?

Again, this is how film companies actually behave, and it’s a decision Disney and Marvel themselves have made several times in the past. Regardless of whether it’s fair to people who liked the characters, they’re going to do what’s convenient to them first and foremost.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 13th 2018 at 10:02:38 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92390: Dec 13th 2018 at 10:03:55 AM

But Netflix doesn't own Charlie Cox, either. Marvel can hire him for any role they want, including Daredevil. If Netflix does sue, it would be thrown out almost immediately.

But why would Netflix sue in the first place? The more Charlie Cox is Daredevil, the more publicity their own show gets.

Regardless of whether it’s fair to people who liked the characters, they’re going to do what’s convenient to them first and foremost.
Except, again, they have carefully made sure that their universe is, so far, intact. That isn't convenient and takes a degree of difficulty.

Edited by alliterator on Dec 13th 2018 at 10:05:31 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#92391: Dec 13th 2018 at 10:04:38 AM

They own the version of the character that’s represented by him, as I just said.

If Netflix does sue, it would be thrown out almost immediately.

I think you greatly underestimate how legal matters between companies as powerful as these actually work. No lawsuit like this gets “thrown out immediately.”

Except, again, they have carefully made sure that their universe is, so far, intact. That isn't convenient and takes a degree of difficulty.

Legal convenience always supersedes narrative convenience. It’s not like people are going to sue them for not retaining their favorite actor.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 13th 2018 at 10:07:17 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92392: Dec 13th 2018 at 10:06:25 AM

Actually, the show is co-owned by Marvel, so they own, I believe, 60% of that. Marvel owns the rest.

No lawsuit like this gets “thrown out immediately.”
When Sesame Street tried to sue that R-rated puppet movie for using "All sesame, no street" tagline, their lawsuit was thrown out immediately, since it falls under fair use. Lawsuits, especially frivolous ones, are thrown out all the time, it all depends on the judge.

Edited by alliterator on Dec 13th 2018 at 10:07:44 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#92393: Dec 13th 2018 at 10:08:40 AM

A television series isn’t the stock market. You don’t get complete say in everything that happens in regards to the intellectual property, with nobody being able to object, just because you own part of it.

When Sesame Street tried to sue that R-rated puppet movie for using "All sesame, no street" tagline, their lawsuit was thrown out immediately, since it falls under fair use.

That’s not exactly comparable. The kinds of lawsuits and the rationale behind their cases are completely irrelevant to each other.

Marvel’s Daredevil is unlikely to be a parody, so it’s not going to be protected by fair use, for one. Sesame Street didn’t own or have a case for owning any intellectual property used in the actual movie, for another. They didn’t cast Gordon’s actor as literally a parody version of Gordon, for instance.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 13th 2018 at 10:12:14 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92394: Dec 13th 2018 at 10:11:52 AM

But they do get a lot of say in it — in fact, Netflix wanted to shorten the seasons of the shows, but Marvel insisted that they keep them 13 episodes and Marvel got its way, because, well, Marvel co-owns the shows.

In fact, I highly doubt the contracts would prohibit Marvel movies and other shows from using the characters as played by the same actors — again, Marvel is most well known for keeping their universe connected, so why would prohibit that with the Netflix heroes? The Russo Brothers even said that they wanted to include the Netflix Marvel heroes, but the production difficulties made it too hard.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#92395: Dec 13th 2018 at 10:15:03 AM

But they do get a lot of say in it — in fact, Netflix wanted to shorten the seasons of the shows, but Marvel insisted that they keep them 13 episodes and Marvel got its way, because, well, Marvel co-owns the shows.

And you think that means they have complete providence over the entire intellectual property that is the series’ and the versions of the characters represented therein? Co-ownership and complete ownership are not the same thing.

Marvel owns Spider-Man. They still needed to make deals to include characters like MVC Spidey or Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends in Spider-Verse.

To be very honest, it’s starting to look more and more like you don’t really know much about how intellectual property law and Hollywood politics works.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 13th 2018 at 10:16:48 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92396: Dec 13th 2018 at 10:21:25 AM

Do you? Because, again, we haven't seen what their actual contracts say. And you still haven't answered the question about why Netflix would sue in the first place — the more Charlie Cox is Daredevil, the more their own show gets publicity.

Marvel owns Spider-Man.
This is completely different, because Marvel doesn't own the film rights to Spider-Man, Sony does. On the other hand, Marvel does own the film and television rights to Daredevil once two years has passed. Sure, they can't use Netflix's version of the character, but, again, that's easy to get around: simply don't reference any events from the Netflix shows and that's it.

Edited by alliterator on Dec 13th 2018 at 10:22:54 AM

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#92397: Dec 13th 2018 at 10:26:23 AM

Wasn't there a stipulation in Charlie Cox's contract that said he could appear in a Marvel movie if he so desired? I remember hearing that he was interested in appearing in Captain America: Civil War, but couldn't be written in because it was too far into production at that point.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92398: Dec 13th 2018 at 10:28:46 AM

Yep, right here. I mean, Marvel's whole thing is having an interconnected universe; I doubt they wouldn't include language in their contracts saying that they could use the same versions of the characters in other movies/shows.

Edited by alliterator on Dec 13th 2018 at 10:29:37 AM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#92399: Dec 13th 2018 at 10:32:18 AM

It feels a bit wish-fulfillmenty to hope Marvel has any big plans for the characters, but a few short years ago I never thought Sony and Fox would be in bed with Marvel, so I'm prepared to be surprised even if I'm not going to start holding my breath. I suspect Marvel would've been happy to let the Netflix shows continue as they were, but with Netflix and Disney about to become competitors, friction was probably inevitable. So I don't know how much Marvel really had planned for this, making it probably too early to know what they'll do or how hardball the negotiations would need to be if there even are any.

Edited by Unsung on Dec 13th 2018 at 11:50:21 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92400: Dec 13th 2018 at 10:39:29 AM

We know the Russo Brothers had wanted to include the Netflix Marvel heroes in Infinity War, which they wouldn't have been able to if they didn't have the rights, and were only prevented by the fact that it was "too complicated to correlate story between not only the other marvel films in production but also the tv productions."


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