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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#92301: Dec 11th 2018 at 9:18:55 PM

I like Doctor Strange but I think it'd have been better served by opening with Strange already a powerful sorceror, and intersperse the movie with flashbacks to major moments such as the car accident, meeting the Ancient One and having his mind opened, ect. rather than being a straight linear origin story.

As was stated earlier in this thread, Doctor Strange is more fun when he's our tour guide into the world of magic, not a fellow clueless passenger.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#92302: Dec 11th 2018 at 9:22:15 PM

Exactly. Ditto for what Gaon said earlier.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92303: Dec 11th 2018 at 9:29:24 PM

Revenge is a conscious, deliberate effort to cause harm. It is a premeditated act with the sole objective of hurting someone in retribution for having hurt you. The simple act of hating someone does not, in and of itself, constitute revenge.
No, but the fact that Toomes is stealing from Tony as both a deliberate act of petty revenge and as a way to earn money does mean that revenge was part of his motives.

You can say all you want how Toomes is only in it for the money, but he isn't: it's very clear that he's also in it to stick it to "the Man," i.e. Tony Stark. Even if Stark doesn't know it's him, Toomes still feels like stealing from him. It might be petty, but it's still revenge. Just revenge mixed with greed.

At no point does Toomes ever suggest that he has any delusions about his actions hurting Stark.
Because Toomes knows that's suicide. He doesn't want to put himself in danger, but he does want some form of revenge — which, again, means stealing from Stark. Why do you think he steals almost only from Stark and Damage Control? Surely, there are other companies, Hammer Industries, etc, but no, we only see him steal from Stark and Damage Control (which was made by Stark). It's because he wanted some form of revenge. Not physical revenge, but a way for him to show that he was superior to Stark, even if Stark didn't know it.

i.e. "I'm stealing Stark's stuff and selling them for money and he doesn't even know it, sucker." Again, it's a win-win for Toomes.

Edited by alliterator on Dec 11th 2018 at 9:29:38 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#92304: Dec 11th 2018 at 9:38:03 PM

That’s a cool part about Toomes, the guy really does want revenge, some form of payback but he’s smart enough to pick his battles & realize that the best course of payback against a multi-trillonaire with the military might of a small country, is to go at it really, really subtle.

Be content with stealing from him without him even knowing who you are. Sure he won’t know it’s your specifically doing harm but the fact he is doing harm at all is enough.

Plus he’s also making mad bank which is like the best of both worlds.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 11th 2018 at 9:38:21 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#92305: Dec 11th 2018 at 9:42:03 PM

Late to this, but I think I understand what Tobias is getting at; however I would argue that it's a bit more specific than "revenge=automatically bad motivation for a villain" like he claims. He's talking about the instances where villains start to become defined entirely around their desire to hurt the hero to the point it starts being to their detriment, flattening their character and making them increasingly more pathetic, which unfortunately isn't that uncommon in long-running stories like cape comics.

This doesn't really apply to Toomes; robbing Stark's tech is something he's doing partly out of spite against Stark, yes, but Toomes' character doesn't entirely revolve around the idea of getting revenge against Stark, so that's not really a problem.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Dec 11th 2018 at 3:13:58 PM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#92306: Dec 11th 2018 at 9:48:47 PM

Toomes is a "best revenge is living well" kind of guy.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92307: Dec 11th 2018 at 10:06:54 PM

Exactly! He's getting revenge and flying under the radar.

Not every revenge is the "all consuming hatred, I must destroy them" kind.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#92308: Dec 11th 2018 at 11:08:52 PM

Let’s not have a repeat of Incredible Hulk’s treatment of South America or The Avengers’ gross little scenes in India.

Could you elaborate on what was wrong with those scenes? I don't recall anything racist about them.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#92309: Dec 11th 2018 at 11:45:48 PM

The Portuguese dialogue in Incredible Hulk’s Brazil scenes is really bad. It’s almost hilarious how mispronounced it is.

The scenes in Latin America in Incredible Hulk and Kolkatta in Avengers are basically stereotypical in their depiction of “here’s the good ol’ white hero surrounded by poverty, he deserves to be somewhere better.” They use the poverty as a foreign aesthetic, with no desire to depict the country differently or say something new or meaningful about the poor people there.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Dec 11th 2018 at 11:55:12 AM

MedusaStone Since: Jan, 2015
#92310: Dec 12th 2018 at 12:31:36 AM

I didn't see Incredible Hulk, but I... did not get that feeling from the Avengers at all. Bruce was in a poverty-stricken area on purpose to a)hide somewhere the governments wouldn't care to search, and b) help the sick people that have no other way to get help. He's not a White Savior, he's using his skills in a place he would've been anyway.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#92311: Dec 12th 2018 at 1:09:06 AM

Yeah, I think we shouldn't overdo it with the racism detection folks.

Edited by Forenperser on Dec 12th 2018 at 10:09:12 AM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#92312: Dec 12th 2018 at 1:23:33 AM

The incredible Hulk is the odd one out anyway. Remember, that's the Universal movie.

Anyway, regarding Derrickson: Happy for him, don't care either way. What I DO care about is that they put the same special effects team on the movie, use the unit they had for Infinity war specifically for "magical fights" and switch out the writers with the exception of whoever came up with "I've come to bargain". Because the biggest problem with Doctor Strange was the writing, the direction was fine, with a glimpse of brilliance here and there. So pair him with another writing team and the next Doctor Strange could be brilliant.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#92313: Dec 12th 2018 at 3:57:17 AM

Just talking as a brazilian here, I didn't any problems with the scene in Rio (I assume its there, there's a favela and everything), hell, seeing foreign movie making brazilians speak Portugal portuguese is something people are more inclined to take as a joke than something offensive, partly because it is pretty common.

As for India in Avengers, tell me something, why would Banner go use his medical skills for free in a developed, rich part of the country, where the inhabitants probably have the means to pay for expensive medical care? While on the run from the US goverment?

If anything in that scene bothers me, is how the hell he learned so much about the medical science to essentially set up his own practice.

Edited by HailMuffins on Dec 12th 2018 at 8:58:31 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#92314: Dec 12th 2018 at 4:43:40 AM

Frankly, he doesn't need to know much. Medical help in India is dire, to say the least, especially in the poorer region. Think of areas who only get a doctor once a week, so you are better ill when said doctor turns up and not in-between...and then the doctor might not even be able to see everyone.

There are also areas in the world were people would get to see a doctor once a month if they are lucky. So someone with skills in that area would be able to set up shop there easily, no question asked, and provided that you are able to deal with the overall poverty and living conditions.

It's just how it is.

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#92315: Dec 12th 2018 at 5:06:07 AM

It's really just rooted into the character, his default state is Walking the Earth, trying to stay ahead of the US military and helping wherever he can. Since (at least in theory) the US has limited jurisdiction and remaining in developed areas would make it easier to get spotted due to Big Brother Is Watching, that will restrict a lot of his travels to any location deemed ghetto, third world or otherwise poverty stricken and low tech. It's really no different than any crime film set in LA, Detroit or New York, as they also come with a perception of being overrun with professional criminals and mafia types.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#92316: Dec 12th 2018 at 6:27:20 AM

Late to this, but I think I understand what Tobias is getting at; however I would argue that it's a bit more specific than "revenge=automatically bad motivation for a villain" like he claims. He's talking about the instances where villains start to become defined entirely around their desire to hurt the hero to the point it starts being to their detriment, flattening their character and making them increasingly more pathetic, which unfortunately isn't that uncommon in long-running stories like cape comics.

This doesn't really apply to Toomes; robbing Stark's tech is something he's doing partly out of spite against Stark, yes, but Toomes' character doesn't entirely revolve around the idea of getting revenge against Stark, so that's not really a problem.

That is basically what I'm getting at, yes.

This is common in comics because comics release issues at a monthly rate for years, even decades at a time. And before the dawn of "writing for the trade", many comics were done-in-one stories. That meant that a lot of comic book plots were Excuse Plots to just have the hero fight one of the many villains in his rogues gallery.

As such, revenge for past defeats became a popular excuse motive to provide those fights.

"May issue: Doc Ock builds a Revenge Laser to destroy Spider-Man."

"June issue: Kraven the Hunter builds a Revenge Laser to destroy Spider-Man."

"July issue: Venom builds a Revenge Laser to destroy Spider-Man."

Film is a very different beast because a single story takes several years to produce. There's not really the kind of space to burn a movie on an Excuse Plot where Spider-Man just fight the Scorpion for no good reason so the producers can cash a paycheck. Quantity of superhero stories is significantly reduced in film, which is why each individual film needs to be careful of quality.

If this month's Spider-Man movie is stupid, you can't just wait to read next month's Spider-Man movie and hope it's better.

One of the symptoms of that difference is the fact that Rogues Galleries themselves are substantially reduced. Most film superheroes don't have a roster of 30-50 villains that they fight constantly in perpetual, eternally-repeating battles. They have one or two mainstay villains that show up a lot as their "iconic" nemesis, and then a few dudes that they fought in that one movie and never again - and a ton that just plain never make the cut.

But I would argue that another symptom is the need for the hero's conflict with the villain or, at the very least, the antagonistic plot thread as is the case with Civil War to be meaningful. It's why Vulture was rewritten to be about societal woes and the plight of the little guy. It's why Civil War spends so much time talking about the Accords and individualism. It's why Thanos suddenly cares about entropy.

You get one shot at telling a complete story that will leave your audience going "Wow, I can't wait until the next movie comes out," instead of many shots at telling okay stories that will leave your audience going, "That was neat. Wonder what next month's issue is about?" So the storytelling really has to step it up over some of the repetitive bullshit from the source material.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#92317: Dec 12th 2018 at 6:40:59 AM

If anything in that scene bothers me, is how the hell he learned so much about the medical science to essentially set up his own practice.
This is nothing new in general - superhero fiction writers don't seem to have any realistic understanding of how much time it takes to become an expert in even one scientific discipline, even if you are highly intelligent (or more likely, they're just ignoring it for the sake of the story). The 'science heroes' are theoretical physicists, expert engineers, and also fully trained medical professionals by like their mid-twenties, and this is handwaved with "they're just that smart."

(Which is why I found it so funny when historians were complaining about Timeless. "Lucy can't possibly be an expert in every single area of history at once," Welcome to how I feel all the time.)

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#92318: Dec 12th 2018 at 6:44:39 AM

[up]Well, it's like how How NOT to Write a Novel said: before writing a character that's smarter than yourself, you should first ask that character if that's a good idea.

[up][up]Which is why I'm concerned over Michael Jordan taking over Superman.

Not that I think he would do a bad job, far from it, but it is symptomatic of the biggest problem with the DCEU: there is no long-term planning over the storyline, and every movie is simply a reaction to the one that came before.

That kind of thing works in comics, but not movies.

I mean, how much more awesome the whole thing would be if, instead, we had a whole trilogy with Hanry Cavill's Superman, then he dies, and Mike instead plays Steel, as he takes up the role of the new Paragon of the DCEU?

Alas, it's not meant to be.

Edited by HailMuffins on Dec 12th 2018 at 11:46:28 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#92319: Dec 12th 2018 at 6:50:14 AM

> Which is why I'm concerned over Michael Jordan taking over Superman.

That Michael Jordan writes in comic books amuses me to no end

tongue

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#92320: Dec 12th 2018 at 6:54:25 AM

The actor, dammit.

Edited by HailMuffins on Dec 12th 2018 at 11:54:39 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#92321: Dec 12th 2018 at 6:55:44 AM

You consider his role in Space Jam acting?

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 12th 2018 at 7:56:06 AM

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#92322: Dec 12th 2018 at 6:58:08 AM

Fine, fine, everyone taking the piss from Hail Muffins, hardy har.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#92323: Dec 12th 2018 at 7:02:42 AM

I have to say that I enjoyed that at least initially, there was no personal relationship between Vulture and Spider-Man. Because that's what Spider-Man should do, he should fight villains because they hurt other people.

Basically count me in as having no interest in having movie after movie in which the hero dunk out their personal issues while leaving a path of destruction in their wake. And I am very happy that the MCU avoids this particular plot-line more often than not in phase 3.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#92324: Dec 12th 2018 at 7:02:57 AM

> You consider his role in Space Jam acting?

It is a film is it not?And he's in it with lines and interacts with other characters,therefore he is acted out a part as an actor,as we call it "Acting,dear boy"

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#92325: Dec 12th 2018 at 7:06:46 AM

Yeah, but it's a bad movie, his lines are bad, and his delivery is bad.


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