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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92276: Dec 11th 2018 at 3:59:18 PM

Scott Derrickson will definitely return for a Doctor Strange sequel. I liked his direction in the first film, even if the story itself was kind of bland, so I have high hopes that this one will be much better. Especially since he's said that he wants to use Nightmare, which might make this movie even more surreal.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#92277: Dec 11th 2018 at 4:57:21 PM

The direction was functional if unremarkable so my response to this is a resounding "meh". I do hope he has the good sense to hire new scriptwriters as the dialogue and characterization were the weakest parts of the film.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92278: Dec 11th 2018 at 5:04:26 PM

The direction was functional if unremarkable so my response to this is a resounding "meh".
What now?

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#92279: Dec 11th 2018 at 5:06:40 PM

It may be because I'm used to seeing this kind of imagery in anime and video games but I was not as blown away as I was hoping to be. It might be unique for live action films, but not for media in general.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92280: Dec 11th 2018 at 5:08:23 PM

Just because it was done in anime doesn't make it not impressive in, say, live action. It's much easier to animate things than it is to actually film them.

There are three great set pieces in Doctor Strange that show great direction:

  • The "open your eye" scene that I just linked.
  • The mirror dimension battle in a constantly shifting city.
  • The last battle where everything is going in reverse.

Edited by alliterator on Dec 11th 2018 at 5:09:21 AM

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#92281: Dec 11th 2018 at 5:08:58 PM

If it's unique to Live Action, then it's unique to Live Action, point.

He isn't making an anime or video game, he shouldn't be held to the standards of that media.

Edited by HailMuffins on Dec 11th 2018 at 10:10:08 AM

AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#92282: Dec 11th 2018 at 5:11:40 PM

After Infinity War I'm surprisingly down for a Doctor Strange sequel, which would've surprised me about a year ago.

Edited by AyyItsMidnight on Dec 11th 2018 at 5:12:59 AM

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#92283: Dec 11th 2018 at 5:20:17 PM

It helps that he actually used spells in Infinity War instead of just Kung Fu with his hands wrapped in orange-colored occult symbols.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#92284: Dec 11th 2018 at 6:03:55 PM

"The "open your eye" scene that I just linked. The mirror dimension battle in a constantly shifting city. The last battle where everything is going in reverse. "

And yet it was Strange magic bullshit in Infinity War that blow everyone way, because people expect high magic, not just kung fu with special efect.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#92285: Dec 11th 2018 at 6:06:37 PM

If it makes people feel better I was more impressed by Strange in Infinity War as well. Now those scenes felt more imaginative.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92286: Dec 11th 2018 at 6:08:00 PM

The difference was that in Infinity War, it's all spells that he himself are doing. In Doctor Strange, they are things that are being done around him, he isn't responsible for them (well, except for the time reversal scene, but that was all due to the Time Stone). All the spells he actually casts in Doctor Strange are beginner's spells, since he himself is a beginner. This is why I'm excited for the sequel, because they can't rely on that anymore.

Also, I want him to have Bats the Ghost Dog.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#92287: Dec 11th 2018 at 6:08:30 PM

This is actually what intrigues me here. The direction of Doctor Strange has its moments, but it suffered from the decision of making Doctor Strange and the other wizards mostly fight via mildly enhanced martial arts. The film only really picks up steam with creative magic scenarios with the time-finnicking shenanigans and (to a lesser extent) mirror dimension business in the third act and by then it borders on too little too late. The relatively brief duel between Thanos and Strange in Infinity War shows much more creativity with Strange's magic than the entire length of his own film does.

I hope Derrickson watched Infinity War and decided to follow its magic beats because otherwise Strange II could have a problem. His eye for magic visuals is good (Dormammu's realm is pretty nifty), but he needs to have some weirder shit on those sorcerer duels.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#92288: Dec 11th 2018 at 6:09:55 PM

I loved the character of Strange since his debut, and IW merely cemented it, but I do love his first movie even if the script was weak in places.

I particularly love the speech The Ancient One give just before she dies.

[up]I think a lot of it was simply escalation, plus the usual constraints of an Origin Story. With the power levels fully established, as are the characters, the next movie spread its wings and go completely nuts.

Also, considering how the Russos like to get the opinion of other creators (they really care about keeping the universe consistent), I wouldn't be surprised if Derrickson actually had a hand on that duel.

Edited by HailMuffins on Dec 11th 2018 at 11:14:23 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92289: Dec 11th 2018 at 6:16:27 PM

Again, I really hope that Derrickson goes with Nightmare as the villain, because the realm of dreams can get pretty freaky and I don't know if Strange's magic will work the same there, either.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#92290: Dec 11th 2018 at 6:16:51 PM

I spent a while trying to figure out what exactly made Strange's film debut feel slightly off (other than a lack of ambition), and my broad conclusion was that really, nobody cares about Strange's origin story. He's a character whose appeal is almost antagonistic to origin stories: most of his appeal derives from him being this already wisened, highly experienced sorcerer with a thousand tricks up his sleeve pulling complex gambits and elaborate magic rules lawyering to tinker with eldritch forces and battle ancient evils.

He's the type of character who makes a impression on the audience arriving, floating through the wall in a lotus stance whilst calmly drinking tea and casting a spell to banish a elder demon, then proclaiming to some innocent bystander he's Doctor Stephen Strange before handing out his card and going back to the Sanctum Sanctorum. The fun of Doctor Strange books is having this master sorcerer take you, the reader, on a ride through the bizarre world he already inhabits and is fully used to.

This is why the Doctor Strange film only really picks up after the Ancient One dies and Strange starts to ease more into the role of master sorceror, and why Strange seems to take flying leaps of competence in terms of magic between Doctor Strange and Thor: Ragnarok and Infinity War. By IW he's basically his comics self, complete with the possibly morally questionable elaborate gambits to stop ancient forces and many tricks up his sleeve.

[up] Nightmare is my favored choice as well. He's the most horror-esque villain of his gallery (being basically Freddy Krueger) and his powerset allows for some great visuals and psychological battles (since he attacks Strange directly by the mind and his fears and traumas). And given Scott Derrickson cut his teeth with horror films, it could be a interesting Genre Shift into a pseudo horror film.

Edited by Gaon on Dec 11th 2018 at 6:19:56 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#92291: Dec 11th 2018 at 6:18:23 PM

The animated Doctor Strange movie several years back also had crazy magic shit.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92292: Dec 11th 2018 at 6:23:05 PM

[up][up] This is because originally, Stan Lee and Steve Ditko didn't give him an origin story. He first appeared in Strange Tales #110 and didn't have his origin told until Strange Tales #115. And Ditko basically came up with the idea for the entire character because he wanted to draw a magician character traveling through strange realms — and the more Ditko drew, the more surreal those realms became. His origin ended up taking up about two pages, but that's not what people most remember about Doctor Strange — they remember the weird incantations, the strange landscapes, the surreal images that Ditko made.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#92293: Dec 11th 2018 at 6:24:48 PM

Precisely my point. Even in modern comics, it is very rare to retell Strange's origin story.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#92294: Dec 11th 2018 at 6:26:10 PM

Actually, he does: he will make Stark look like a fool whose stuff was stolen. And then he sells Stark's stuff for money. Again, for Toomes, it's a win-win. Because, again, he hates Tony Stark.

No, he doesn't. He's not trying to "make Stark look like a fool whose stuff was stolen". Toomes adamantly does not want Stark to know his stuff was stolen. He is very clear about that. His operation works only because they stay under the radar.

It's why he keeps rejecting the high altitude op and only relents out of sheer desperation once they've been made. Quoth the man himself,

  • Toomes: How many times have I told you not to fire them out in the open?
  • Shocker: You said, "Move the merchandise."
  • Toomes: Under the radar. Under the radar! That’s how we survive. If you bring Damage Control or the Avengers down here, we’re through!

Even his resentment towards Stark is more of a classist disdain than a personal grudge for the man himself. He sees Stark as emblematic of a wider social issue.

  • Toomes: Those people, Pete, those people up there, the rich and the powerful, they do whatever they want. Guys like us, like you and me? They don’t care about us. We build their roads, and we fight all their wars and everything, but they don’t care about us. We have to pick up after them. We have to eat their table scraps. That’s how it is.

That's not Toomes ranting about his personal grudge against Stark and how Stark will pay for his crimes. That's Toomes talking about his social philosophy, which is that people like Stark get to where they are by stepping on people like him and Peter.

Toomes is a professional. He has his resentments, sure, but he keeps his eye on business.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#92296: Dec 11th 2018 at 6:35:08 PM

I hate, hate, HATED Doctor Strange, so I’m unenthused by the existence of a sequel, let alone keeping the same guy as before.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92297: Dec 11th 2018 at 6:54:18 PM

No, he doesn't. He's not trying to "make Stark look like a fool whose stuff was stolen
By stealing that whole entire shipment of stuff, there is no way he can prevent Stark from knowing it was stolen. Again: you say "resentment," but that's another word for "hate." And Toomes does hate Stark. And he wants to show up Stark in a way where he gets money and doesn't get caught. Again: for him, it's a win-win. Stark loses his stuff, he gets money, win-win.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#92298: Dec 11th 2018 at 7:26:22 PM

Stealing the whole shipment was not his original plan, though. He rejected it until too many Spider-Man induced setbacks made him desperate.

I think it's more a case that he wants to steal stuff to make a good living, and Stark's super-tech collection program is something he's not gonna feel guilty stealing from.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#92299: Dec 11th 2018 at 9:10:59 PM

By stealing that whole entire shipment of stuff, there is no way he can prevent Stark from knowing it was stolen. Again: you say "resentment," but that's another word for "hate." And Toomes does hate Stark. And he wants to show up Stark in a way where he gets money and doesn't get caught. Again: for him, it's a win-win. Stark loses his stuff, he gets money, win-win.

That is a semantic argument that doesn't actually matter. Toomes resents Stark. Toomes hates Stark. Which exact word is used doesn't matter, because "revenge" does not mean "doing bad things that happen, as a matter of circumstance, to adversely affect someone you don't like".

Revenge is a conscious, deliberate effort to cause harm. It is a premeditated act with the sole objective of hurting someone in retribution for having hurt you. The simple act of hating someone does not, in and of itself, constitute revenge.

At no point does Toomes ever suggest that he has any delusions about his actions hurting Stark. Nothing he does is ever about making Stark suffer in recompense for maligning him. His objective is to ensure that Stark never even finds out what he's doing. He's not taking revenge against Stark, because he has no intention of his actions ever being noticed by Stark, let alone hurting him.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 11th 2018 at 10:12:51 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#92300: Dec 11th 2018 at 9:12:39 PM

I've said it before, but why not one more time? I'm all about a bargain, after all: Doctor Strange would have been so much better with more time skips. One where it was just the eight years between Iron Man and the then-present in 2016 with Strange learning the ropes of magic, and then the actual Groundhog Day loop with the Time Stone/Eye of Agamotto where he experiences the equivalent of years or decades caught in a loop, honing his craft and earning his wisdom so he could step into the role of Sorcerer Supreme fully formed.

I still really want the latter.


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