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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#92251: Dec 11th 2018 at 11:52:13 AM

She-Hulk.

I accept no other Gamma mutant before She-Hulk shows up.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#92252: Dec 11th 2018 at 11:55:34 AM

I mean, that's not his total motivation, but part of his motivation is "I hate Tony Stark, I need money, therefore I will steal Tony Stark's tech and sell it myself. Win win."

No. His motivation is that Stark screwed him out of salvaging alien tech so he's going to keep some of the alien tech and sell it himself on the black market.

And then he started stealing more alien tech to continue selling on the black market. Which he stole from Tony Stark, the sole proprietor of alien tech on the planet Earth.

Toomes has a grudge against Stark, certainly. But he's not acting out of some belief that by swiping an Ultron head here or a Chitauri blaster there, he's making Stark suffer in some way. He's motivated by his criminal business.

If anything, he's actively trying to fly under Stark's radar because he knows that's a fight he can't win and he's not stupid enough to ever try. It's not about revenge.

Whiplash was about revenge. Vulture is about criminal enterprise.

I think Zemo is pretty compelling for the amount of time he gets to work. I won't fault you your opinion, but I think his being there adds shading and emotion to the movie's central argument that wouldn't be there if Tony and Steve had gotten into their fight some other way. I'm not saying other ways couldn't have worked, but I liked the slow build of Zemo's plot, and the restrained performance behind the character. For someone who doesn't get to speak much, especially in a story that's crammed full of characters, he has presence, and I think Daniel Bruhl had a lot to do with that.

I really do hope we get Citizen V.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see more of Zemo too. I think there's a wealth of potential in the character. But the point is that I'd want more of him.

The last thing I'd want from a Zemo return is for Zemo to show up and be like, "I'm here for REVENGE AGAINST THE AVENGERS! Again! Because they defeated me and now I must have VENGEANCE for my last attempt at VENGEANCE!"

Zemo's shallowness worked for the supplemental role he served in Civil War, but if he was to be given central focus as a main character, he'd need to find something more to be about lest he wind up outstaying his welcome.

Zemo was by no means a bad character. But there's no way that the Zemo we got could have carried the entire narrative focus as the primary antagonist without any of the Stark and Registration stuff. If the movie had strictly been "Cap vs. Zemo", they'd need to overhaul him significantly to keep audience interest.

He's a shallow character who worked by keeping his direct involvement with the events small but significant, while letting the more interesting characters keep the camera's focus. Again, contrast Whiplash, who was the Big Bad of a Revenge Plot that was all about him.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 11th 2018 at 12:55:55 PM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#92255: Dec 11th 2018 at 12:24:54 PM

I think there is a little bit more to Zemo. See, I see his desire for revenge as deflection. In reality, he is broken up mostly because he feels guilty about not being there from his family in time of need. It's just easier to blame the Avengers instead.

Exploring this particular concept further might be a great storyline in a future movie.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#92256: Dec 11th 2018 at 12:40:16 PM

I mean, I get that you've been burned by cheesy, overwrought, Milking the Giant Cow-style REVENGE!!!, we all have, but it doesn't have to be like that. I don't want this version to go Four-Colour or anything, but I don't think there's much chance of that with this version of Zemo. His more understated villain is part of why I'd love it if Hawkeye and Black Widow were part of this Thunderbolts story, maybe in a supervisory role — lore bonus aside, I'd like to see more of their past histories as spies at least as much as Zemos's, and this would give them an excuse to exposit on the secret history of the world as seen through the agents of the darker side of SHIELD. Not So Different, perhaps — and maybe they let some detail about a past operation slip that Zemo recognizes from his research, and that's the start of his scheme for the movie.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#92257: Dec 11th 2018 at 12:41:46 PM

[up][up]Showing him as a somewhat distant father and husband who genuinely meant well would go to great lengths to explain his hatred for the Avengers.

Just before Sokovia, he was finally out of the Death Squad business and could make up for the lost time, but the Avengers yanked that chance away from, so he'll now spend the rest of his life with guilt.

Edited by HailMuffins on Dec 11th 2018 at 5:42:29 PM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#92258: Dec 11th 2018 at 12:58:00 PM

The issue with revenge is less of motivation and more of WHAT the villian can do, more of the time the villian cant affect anyone because he is bound to plot contract, meaning that usually they are the same villian who cant do anything evil or damage the hero but with a "FUCK YOU! throw aorund.

Now the best revenge plot invold the villian damaging the hero in some way, you NEED to let him punch the hero in some way, otherwise it just come as silly.

And as for Zemo, my complain havent change at all: the plot itself bend over to break the avenger so Zemo can finish them off and said it was is plan all along, it dosent help that the hype have build him as sort of villian bat god who can adapt and is good for being just A MAN!.

Also in a cross of Zemo and revenge, is intersting how Zemo dosent want revenge against Sokovia(And incident that Three avengers, Hulk, Tony and Wanda are guilty to create) and JUST because is family....it feel a weird angle, a way to wesel out the avenger of the mess of Sokovia.

Another issue is that revenge is a one shot motivation: ether the chararter die and dont fulliet or he does and then.....what? I hard to give Zemo another motivation that ruin part of what make him intersting.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#92259: Dec 11th 2018 at 1:01:04 PM

So you’re saying Zemo needs a pet bird.

Actually, yeah. That was, like, the one likable thing about Whiplash. Zemo's already likable, so a "pet bird" (read: a worldly attachment that exists outside of his single-minded pursuit of vengeance) could do wonders for him.

Civil War gave us enough of Zemo to understand why Zemo is. What a hypothetical Thunderbolts movie needs to answer is what he can become. I wouldn't want to spend too much of his next film's valuable screentime looking back at territory already well enough trodden.

It's not the next movie's job to explain Zemo. The last movie already explained Zemo. The next movie's job is to move him forward into the future.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 11th 2018 at 2:05:41 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#92260: Dec 11th 2018 at 1:22:18 PM

Feels a bit like you're arguing against points nobody's making. Nobody's saying they have to spend a whole movie on this stuff. It's just building on what's there, finding ways to make it relevant to what he does next, whatever that might be. Like, it would be weirder if none of this stuff mattered to him at all.

[up][up]Still don't really see how the movie bends over backwards at any point. The more usual complaint seems to be that Zemo really didn't do much at all and a lot of these things might have happened anyway, and I think that's probably closer to the truth. It wasn't a big complicated plot that unfolded just according to plan, it was a series of plausible events based on a few nudges here that he was in position to take advantage of, through a lot of risks and a lot of luck.

Edited by Unsung on Dec 11th 2018 at 2:28:42 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#92262: Dec 11th 2018 at 2:05:46 PM

I don’t see Zemo carrying a Thunderbolts movie simply because the MCU version of Zemo would rather eat hot pokers than work with gifted people, and has little motivation if the Avengers aren’t around. They would have to invent a new rationale for him.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#92263: Dec 11th 2018 at 2:08:13 PM

Ross issues an ultimatum that he's not allowed to eat any hot pokers until he works with the team.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#92264: Dec 11th 2018 at 2:09:07 PM

[up][up]With all the hub bub about revenge I think forgot that about Zemo. This rendition doesn't work as a character if he joins a superteam.

Edited by VeryMelon on Dec 11th 2018 at 5:09:23 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#92265: Dec 11th 2018 at 2:09:45 PM

Alas, cold pokers don’t have that same sharp flavor.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#92266: Dec 11th 2018 at 2:11:37 PM

I prefer my pokers medium rare, personally.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#92267: Dec 11th 2018 at 2:15:38 PM

Zemo doesn't have an issue with gifted people. He has an issue with people he considers dangerous, especially the Avengers.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#92268: Dec 11th 2018 at 2:23:17 PM

His explicit reason for killing off the extra Winter Soldiers (instead of using them in his plan) is because he didn’t want any more people like the Avengers in the world.

He’s not a big fan of gifted people running around, especially if they’re militarized (which the Thunderbolts would be).

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 11th 2018 at 2:30:02 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#92269: Dec 11th 2018 at 2:36:50 PM

[up] Because they are dangerous in their own right.

But even if you want to read it as him hating all powered people period, I can still see him getting involved with the Thunderbolts with the hidden goal to proof to the world that gifted people are dangerous.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#92270: Dec 11th 2018 at 2:48:18 PM

The only way I can really see this Zemo working in the Thunderbolts is if something major happens that makes him decide the world does need heroes but he decides that they can't be the Avengers and that he can do better than them.

This song needs more love.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#92271: Dec 11th 2018 at 3:00:40 PM

[up] I guess Infinity War might be enough...provided that anyone other than the Avengers themselves will even remember the snap after Endgame.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#92272: Dec 11th 2018 at 3:01:51 PM

You can also modify how the team goes against him in the original comics by instead of turning it into he tries to take over the world but that he’s trying to discredit superhumans & the rest of the Thunderbolts try to stop him before he does something awful in his attempt to ruin their reputation.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#92273: Dec 11th 2018 at 3:23:18 PM

I personally like the idea of Ross forcing Zemo and his team to work for him, similar to the Thunderbolts run from around the time of Civil War. A team of villains with restraining bolts in place to keep them complient.

However, also dashing in Zemo's duplicity from the original run. In this case, rather than trying to run the Masters of Evil under a secret guise of being heroes, Zemo would be working against Ross in secret to undermine and destroy the Thunderbolts project because of his anti-"People like the Avengers" agenda.

In a sense, there would wind up being three factions:

  • Ross and his men
  • Zemo and anyone who agrees with him that they need to f*ck Ross and burn this shit to the ground.
  • A third group that legitimately believes in what they're doing but doesn't think either of the aforementioned should be holding their reigns - presumably, this would be Songbird's faction.

Remember: Zemo is a central character to the Thunderbolts mythos, but he's not exactly a good guy in it. So his particularly antagonistic perspective towards such a concept can actually work for the film.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 11th 2018 at 4:24:14 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#92274: Dec 11th 2018 at 3:37:45 PM

A Gambit Pileup with everyone trying to outmanipulate everyone else, and some purer minds in the middle, would be pretty good.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92275: Dec 11th 2018 at 3:38:48 PM

His motivation is that Stark screwed him out of salvaging alien tech so he's going to keep some of the alien tech and sell it himself on the black market.
You just repeated back what I wrote, but with different words. "Stark screwed him out of salvaging alien tech" = which makes him hate Tony Stark. "So he keeps some of the alien tech and sell it himself" = Well, yes, at first, but then he outright starts stealing the tech from Stark and from Damage Control.

But he's not acting out of some belief that by swiping an Ultron head here or a Chitauri blaster there, he's making Stark suffer in some way.
Actually, he does: he will make Stark look like a fool whose stuff was stolen. And then he sells Stark's stuff for money. Again, for Toomes, it's a win-win. Because, again, he hates Tony Stark.


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