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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#92176: Dec 10th 2018 at 5:21:02 PM

The Far from Home synopsis has been released by Disney Russia.

"Peter Parker and his friends go on summer holidays to Europe. However, the friends will hardly be able to rest - Peter will have to agree to help Nick Fury uncover the mystery of creatures that cause natural disasters and destruction throughout the continent."

The cast list:

Tom Holland, Samuel L. Jackson, Michael Keaton, Jon Favreau, Jake Gyllenhaal, Zendaya, Marisa Tomei, Cobie Smulders.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#92177: Dec 10th 2018 at 5:25:07 PM

Yeah, that definitely sounds like the monsters are actually Mysterio's smoke and mirror tricks.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#92178: Dec 10th 2018 at 5:44:18 PM

Creating a threat for himself to solve and look like a hero is the exact sort of thing he'd do, too.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#92179: Dec 10th 2018 at 5:49:11 PM

Well, we more or less know the entire plot of the movie now.

Hopefully there's another Liz twist somewhere in there.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92180: Dec 10th 2018 at 5:59:24 PM

I love that the Spider-Man movies are now taking on more small-time threats. Like, sure, let's leave the world-ending threats to the Avengers, Spider-Man has to fight a fancy illusionist.

Also, I think the twist is that Mysterio is going to be found out as the one making the creatures near the middle of the film and when Spider-Man stops him and reveals him as not a hero to the world, he'll suddenly become a lot more dangerous and decide to just kill Spider-Man.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#92181: Dec 10th 2018 at 6:03:38 PM

> Spider-Man has to fight a fancy illusionist

excuse you those are deadly illusions

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#92182: Dec 10th 2018 at 6:05:13 PM

I certainly hope not. Nothing causes abrupt Villain Decay like promptly abandoning an interesting and compelling plot to declare, "My entire existence and character revolves around REVENGE AGAINST THE PROTAGONIST now!"

Revenge Villains are garbage. Let's not shove Mysterio down that rabbit hole of stupid before his first movie's even finished.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 10th 2018 at 7:06:01 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92183: Dec 10th 2018 at 6:06:08 PM

Hmm. Maybe he'll decide to expose Spider-Man as a villain, since Spider-Man did the same for him then? That would actually be a lot more dangerous.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#92184: Dec 10th 2018 at 6:10:54 PM

...If they are in Europe, how can Spidey and Mysterio have their famous fight on the bridge.

At least versions of him have fought old Fish Bowl head on that bridge.

So far, Ultimate Spider-Man and Marvel's Spider-Man have opted out (though the latter did a homage by Mysterio starting his attack on the bridge).

But now they're in Europe. Sure, they can fight on a bridge, but it won't be the same.

Curse you Far from Home. You're too far from home.

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#92185: Dec 10th 2018 at 6:11:08 PM

[up][up][up] Zemo’s motivation was revenge though.

As was partly Killmonger’s.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 10th 2018 at 6:11:43 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#92186: Dec 10th 2018 at 6:12:40 PM

But they weren't villains beforehand.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#92187: Dec 10th 2018 at 6:13:15 PM

It really does feel like they're using Ant-Man and Spider-Man to finally be able to adapt the themes of the more archetypical, every-day comic book plots rather than always adapting the most grand scale of stories every single time. I love it.

A Busman's Holiday, interrupted by a supervillain attack that forces Spidey to team up with Fury and a mysterious new hero who turns out to be behind it? Classic comic books.

...If they are in Europe, how can Spidey and Mysterio have their famous fight on the bridge.

London Bridge? Mysterio could even send it falling down.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 10th 2018 at 6:14:04 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#92188: Dec 10th 2018 at 6:19:57 PM

Zemo benefit from an Excuse Plot. A shallow, paper-thin character could work for the specific role he had in Civil War, because the film's real complex and interesting antagonist was Iron Man. Zemo's job was just to keep the ball rolling and give Iron Man and Cap excuses to come into conflict with one another.

At no point was the movie actually about Zemo.

Also, Killmonger had a lot more going for him than "Muwahaha I will destroy T'Challa." A lot more.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 10th 2018 at 7:21:01 AM

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#92189: Dec 10th 2018 at 6:21:42 PM

Either way revenge is a perfectly serviceable motivation.

Vengeance is everything.

Its just like everything else, it can be fucked up if written wrong.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#92190: Dec 10th 2018 at 6:22:49 PM

[up][up]Eh, I thought Zemo had a little more to him than that, to be fair. Like, yes, it’s brief, but effective. Man with espionage training loses family; is angry; seeks out to destroy those he blames for the loss.

Killmonger is admittedly far, far more developed and complex.

Edited by wisewillow on Dec 10th 2018 at 9:23:07 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#92191: Dec 10th 2018 at 6:28:41 PM

A perfectly serviceable motivation for a minor thorn in the hero's side that isn't meant to actually carry the movie himself, maybe. But as the central plot? It's boring and stupid.

It's a matter of two things: stakes and scope.

So far as scope goes, a villain whose motivation is that he wants to win one against the hero is coming at the story from a position of weakness. The hero is the insurmountable threat, the unstoppable behemoth, the invulnerable giant. The villain is the hapless underdog with no hope to prevail.

That's not an interesting story. "Doc Ock really, really, REALLY wanted to finally win JUST ONCE against Spider-Man. But then he didn't. The end." When the underdog loses because he sucks and that's why he was the underdog in the first place, there's no real suspense or tension there. That's what we call a Foregone Conclusion.

A villain who cannot be menacing, who seems totally helpless to actually harm the hero, is a poor choice to carry the plot.

And then there's the stakes to consider. When the only actual interest or motivation the villain has is that he really wants to stick it to the hero, then the only thing actually at stake is the hero. At this point, the hero's not fighting to save the day or help people. He's just one Violence Dude punching up another Violence Dude to determine which of them should get f*cked.

That's not a superhero story. It's a cowboy flick.

Apart from those two issues with Revenge Villains, it's just boring. It's boring because every Revenge Villain is the same guy. There is zero distinction between Doc Ock TRYING TO KILL SPIDER-MAN, the Green Goblin TRYING TO KILL SPIDER-MAN, or Venom TRYING TO KILL SPIDER-MAN. At the end of the day, it's the exact same plot repeated ad nauseum with nothing new or interesting to add.

The moment a villain abandons all previous characterization and declares that his mission in life will now be to DESTROY [INSERT PROTAGONIST HERE], that is the moment when that villain ceases to have anything of value to contribute to the story.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 10th 2018 at 7:31:05 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#92192: Dec 10th 2018 at 6:36:42 PM

I agree that it can be written poorly, but I don't know if I'd frame it in such absolute terms.

Come to think of it, wasn't one of the most famous comic books stories of all time a revenge plot by the villain, with proper, lasting consequences and things at stake besides the hero's life?

Yeah, Stuffed in the Fridge is a bad trope and all, but still, I think you can do a revenge story and not have it be just the same old thing.

Oh God! Natural light!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#92193: Dec 10th 2018 at 6:38:15 PM

Actually there are stories that are about the villain trying their hardest to defeat the insurmountable protagonist and their failures even portrayed as a tragedy.

There was that episode of Samurai Jack about the bounty hunters coming up with a plan to take down Jack or the Hellsing anime where its revealed that the motivation of all the main villains is to take down the immortal protagonist and so it showcases the sheer depths of depravity they are willing to go through to win involving betrayal, mass-murder, turning themselves into abominations slowly falling apart just for an extra boost of power.

[up] Also Khan from Star Trek, his vengeance is legendary as I recall.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 10th 2018 at 6:39:12 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#92194: Dec 10th 2018 at 6:38:19 PM

I feel like Zemo worked well, but on the whole I agree with Tobias that revenge isn't a good motive for villains, for one of the main reasons he cited: if the villain's only goal is to harm the superhero, the superhero isn't doing anything particularly heroic by fighting the villain. They're just two powerful people causing danger and damage by getting in a grudge match. In theory, if the villain only wanted revenge, it would be more virtuous for the hero to surrender and save civilians from the danger of being caught in the crossfire.

Edited by Galadriel on Dec 10th 2018 at 9:39:57 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#92195: Dec 10th 2018 at 6:40:03 PM

Actually there are stories that are about the villain trying their hardest to defeat the insurmountable protagonist and their failures even portrayed as a tragedy.

There was that episode of Samurai Jack about the bounty hunters coming up with a plan to take down Jack or the Hellsing anime where its revealed that the motivation of all the main villains is to take down the immortal protagonist and so it showcases the sheer depths of depravity they are willing to go through to win involving betrayal, mass-murder, turning themselves into abominations slowly falling apart just for an extra boost of power.

I wouldn't really consider, "No, really, my bad guy is so evil, you guys. So. Evil." to be the height of thematic storytelling.

Whoop-de-doo, your bad guy is super evil. Bad guys are supposed to be evil. There's no prize for managing to achieve 0.5-dimensionality.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 10th 2018 at 7:40:53 AM

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#92196: Dec 10th 2018 at 6:40:21 PM

Actually there are stories that are about the villain trying their hardest to defeat the insurmountable protagonist and their failures even portrayed as a tragedy.

Lex Luthor: Man of Steel is a good example. In fact, that would make a pretty decent movie adaptation.

I wouldn't really consider, "No, really, my bad guy is so evil, you guys. So. Evil." to be the height of thematic storytelling.

Stories don't have to be the height of narrative concept to be good, or even to be great. Execution matters.

Though whether the plot of Hellsing is really as two dimensional and bland as you say is something better put to a person more familiar with the series than me.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 10th 2018 at 6:43:28 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#92197: Dec 10th 2018 at 6:43:01 PM

[up][up] That's not really the point, its not about them being evil.

The point is the sheer desperation they are willing to go for the desire of finally beating the protagonist & how even the protagonist himself is disappointed in them because he wanted them to win too but without them becoming monsters in the process.

It also makes it all the more special that the villain does win in the end, & he does so through such a batshit plan that you have to give him credit.

[up] Indeed execution is what matters. Anderson & Walter's deaths were extreme Tearjerkers for a reason.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 10th 2018 at 6:44:30 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#92198: Dec 10th 2018 at 6:44:38 PM

That's not a superhero story. It's a cowboy flick.
"Superhero" isn't a genre, it's a setting. There can be superhero films that are also western films (see: Logan), there can be superhero horror films (see: the upcoming New Mutants), there can be superhero heist films (Ant-Man) or superhero conspiracy thrillers (Winter Soldier).

Saying "That's not a superhero story" is completely and utterly useless because everything can be a superhero story. All you need is a superhero in it.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#92199: Dec 10th 2018 at 9:10:50 PM

It's less that revenge can never be an effective motivation. It can (someone here cited Khan from Star Trek II and yeah he's a great example of a revenge plot done well).

It's more that it often feels, well overused and lazy imo. Like a lot of writers cannot, or just don't want to, think of anything more creative or interesting and so they just go "well just have it be revenge" and that's it.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#92200: Dec 10th 2018 at 9:34:47 PM

Revenge is a bit of easy well to go to, yes, but it also does run pretty deep. There's a tendency to make revenge stories shallow because it's such a familiar emotion, but the same is true of romance stories, and I don't think we're out of stories to tell about love and hate just yet. It just takes the right person to tell it, and that can mean it's simple but skillfully executed, or twisted and complex and honestly kind of a mess — and any points in between. The problem is just when writers don't put much thought into it, because yeah, it does start to feel kind of stale when the villains start dipping into the first few grimy inches of that same well so often.

Edited by Unsung on Dec 11th 2018 at 5:57:02 AM


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