TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Marvel Cinematic Universe

Go To

Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#91626: Dec 2nd 2018 at 9:56:37 PM

Or that he's so un-empathetic to just murder a friend at the suggestion that it MIGHT fix things. Murdering someone without exploring other options is foolhardy and we'd be having a very different debate if they murdered him only for Thanos to have never gotten the Soul Stone or one of the other plots to somehow stop him. Now you have a friend who never needed to die.

You're misusing the word "murder".

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#91627: Dec 2nd 2018 at 10:00:32 PM

Assisted suicide, whatever, they'd still feel really awful if they killed Vision and it turned out it had been for naught because Thanos had already been stopped somewhere out in space. It'd be depressing as fuck.

Trolley problem: you can murder someone to keep a trolley from hitting a group of people, so you do, but then it turns out that the trolley driver got it under control and fixed the brakes in time, so no-one was in any danger and you killed that person for nothing.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#91628: Dec 2nd 2018 at 10:20:08 PM

It's also not Steve's final decision if Wanda kills Vision, that's Wanda's decision. She was the one telling him no, to hold on a bit longer and find another way. Cap just agreed with her. If she made the decision to kill Vision, Steve wouldn't have stood in her way, since y'know, he didn't when it actually happened in the movie.

I thought Steve was the leader.

Zanthype from The Tardis Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#91629: Dec 2nd 2018 at 10:53:45 PM

Steve might be the Avengers' leader, but that doesn't mean he can make Wanda kill someone. That's not at all his personality. Like, that is ridiculously out of character for him to force someone to kill another being.

"In 900 years of time and space I've never met anyone who wasn't important."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#91630: Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:18:49 PM

Steve: “Close it.” (Black Widow closes the portal.)

I doubt Wanda would listen, but that’s a separate issue.

InkDagger Since: Jul, 2014
#91631: Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:24:24 PM

Plus, everyone following one person's lead is not what the Avengers have been so far and, in fact, they all make their own decisions repeatedly with their own motivations and often outright ignore direct orders or suggestions from others.

Its probably what makes the characters compelling, even when the writing doesn't give them much to do. Wanda chooses to go with Hawkeye rather than Vision or how she handles the Suicide Bomber at the beginning of Civil War. Natasha decides to join Cap during the airport fight in Civil War, despite the danger it puts herself in. Hell, her coice to release the Red File (even if the consequences never got followed up on) is still a massive character choice to be made. And, as much as I genuinely didn't like Homecoming, Spider-man does repeatedly make choices to disregard Tony's advice and orders.

So, no, Cap cannot force or order Wanda to kill Vision and it makes it more powerful that she does it on her own.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#91632: Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:27:50 PM

Steve: “Close it.” (Black Widow closes the portal.)
Saying "Close the portal even though our friend is probably still up there" is different from saying "Kill this person whom you know and love."

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#91633: Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:45:41 PM

Regarding the poster: Is it just me, or are her eyes kind of sad? I actually like this, she looks kind of tragic, but it's an unusual choice.

Regarding Steve: He is the kind of guy who would sacrifice himself in a heartbeat, but he would never order anyone to do the same. But he is also very aware that he can't always save everyone. If you put him into a corner he WILL make the hard decision.

Example 1: In Avengers he tells Natasha to close the portal, knowing full well that Tony might die because of this decision. But he knows they can't risk waiting any longer because they have no idea what might come through the wormhole next. The only reason he doesn't sacrifices Tony that day "for the greater good" is because he falls back through the hole in the last second.

Example 2: In The Winter Soldier he is fighting against Bucky who is his best friend. While he isn't keen on killing Bucky in the process, it is quite obvious that he would have done it if it had truly been necessary. And once the chip is at it's place, he orders Maria to activate the weapons even though both he AND Bucky are still on board. But he also stops fighting Bucky at this point because he rather wants to get killed by Bucky than being forced to kill him directly.

Example 3: Sokovia. There Steve WAS ready to destroy the city, but he still wanted to get as many people as possible off beforehand. If the helicarrier hadn't shown up, he would have ordered Tony and Thor to fly as many civilians as possible off while he and Natasha would have stayed and died with whoever was left.

So, no, it is not true that Steve would never sacrifice one for the many, but he would NEVER do it as first resort either. It is always the LAST solution for him and, rightfully, he feels that there is a difference between a soldier who dies in battle and putting someone up as a sacrificial lamb. And he is absolutely right, btw.

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#91634: Dec 3rd 2018 at 2:11:18 AM

I'm not sure if this is the right thread to talk about this, but what's the point of having EpilepticTrees.AvengersInfinityWar when WMG.AvengersInfinityWar and WMG.Avengers4 exist? I feel like the Epileptic Trees page should be deleted.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#91635: Dec 3rd 2018 at 3:00:53 AM

Eh,separate pages are fine

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#91636: Dec 3rd 2018 at 5:30:33 AM

Wanda feeling bad? meh, she send hulk to-*get shot*

Ok ok about Steve in sokovia I will said it made not diferent: sure they have people from the droid but they didnt have any way to move on ground meaning Cap just stop the inevitable, it was that stupid helicarrier ex machina what saved people and it show how Cap dosent have an answer aside of punshing things.

In fact I think that is the issue here: While Tony pursuit goodness as project with a endgame(therefore Ultron exist) Cap seen to follow goodness as short of Gut feeling, something he just MUST do NOW, let everything else be dammed, this can be example when he said to tony he cant sit when people need help, which is fine but it speak of a chronicle need of heroism.

In short, when all do you have is a shield, all problem look like nails...or something like that.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#91637: Dec 3rd 2018 at 5:42:34 AM

Whut? Nobody expects caps to solve the problem of the universe on his own. The point here is that Cap's moral compass is pretty sound. That is kind of the point of the character? If he wouldn't have strong and admirable values he wouldn't be Cap.

And I for my part would not be okay with just killing someone because it looks like the fastest and easiest solution. It's what you do when it is the ONLY solution. Not beforehand.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#91638: Dec 3rd 2018 at 6:56:40 AM

I would certainly think it should be looked into quickly if I’m told the odds are “this guy can teleport anywhere, control space, crush Thor, Loki, and the Hulk, explode planets, defeated a space fleet, and probably will be capable of a bunch of other unimaginable stuff once he gets back from wherever at any time.”

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Dec 3rd 2018 at 6:57:36 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#91639: Dec 3rd 2018 at 7:13:43 AM

Age of Ultron wasn't "Save everyone or nobody." Cap was perfectly willing to shoot down Sokovia, but not until he made sure he saved as many as he could. There's even a moment where he believes they need to shoot Sokovia down and is fully prepared to stay and die himself ( a la Winter Soldier)...when SHIELD shows up.

You're misremembering that. It's Nat that proposes staying on the island and dying with the people. Cap obstinately refuses to even hear about the plan to destroy it.

  • Widow: Cap, these people are going nowhere. If Stark finds a way to blow this rock...
  • Cap: Not 'til everyone's safe.
  • Widow: Everyone up here versus everyone down there? There's no math there.
  • Cap: I'm not leaving this rock with one civilian on it.
  • Widow: I didn't say we should leave.

Infinity War is similar: Cap isn't someone who thinks they can save everybody, but he's someone who try his hardest to save as many as he can, no matter what. Hell, did you see him arguing with Wanda when she was finally killing Vision? No, because he knew it was the only thing to do at the time.

He was too busy getting beat to hell by Thanos to express an opinion one way or the other on the matter.

Honestly, the only thing wrong with the plan to surgically remove the Mind Stone from Vision was that Corvus Glaive interrupted the procedure. There was no indication that it wouldn't have worked, given just a bit more time.

A plan that only would have worked if you had more time is a plan that never would have worked. Time is always a factor that needs to be taken into consideration.

Upon being told that a guy who beat the shit out of the Hulk and killed Thor could show up at any moment, Cap decided that they had time to dedicate several hours to traveling to Wakanda, explaining the situation, and then attempting to perform a complex theoretical operation that no one fully understood.

He was ultimately proven wrong in that assumption.

Whut? Nobody expects caps to solve the problem of the universe on his own. The point here is that Cap's moral compass is pretty sound. That is kind of the point of the character? If he wouldn't have strong and admirable values he wouldn't be Cap.

That, right there, is the problem I have with the character. Once you accept the logic chain that "Captain America is right because he's Captain America, and if he wasn't right then he wouldn't be Captain America," then discussion surrounding the character's actions becomes impossible. Captain America should not be considered a Sacred Cow whose choices are considered immutably just and beyond critique.

A choice should be considered a good choice because the choice was good. Not because any choice made by a character we like is automatically good by default. No character in any media I've ever seen silences criticism the way Captain America does. Whether in the films or in the comics, there's a general agreement among fans that you DO NOT argue with Cap.

Except when he's a Nazi, of course, because that doesn't count.

EDIT: What I'm trying to say is that Cap is a legitimately interesting and fascinating character, but he loses a lot of his interesting qualities with the insistence that he must always be an unquestionably just and morally flawless character who emanates absolute truth from his every word and deed.

I think I finally understand why Superman's fans get so upset at claims that the character is an invulnerable moral paragon composed of pure rightness.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 3rd 2018 at 8:29:25 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#91640: Dec 3rd 2018 at 7:29:48 AM

Once you accept the logic chain that "Captain America is right because he's Captain America, and if he wasn't right then he wouldn't be Captain America,"
Except that's not what people are saying. When people say "He has a sound moral compass" they aren't saying "He's right because he's Captain America," they are saying "He has a sound moral compass," i.e. he won't kill his friends when there is a chance to save them.

A plan that only would have worked if you had more time is a plan that never would have worked.
Yes. It. Is. A plan that needs more time is just a plan that needs more time. Nobody can anticipate how much time it will take for Thanos to attack or for them to repel Thanos's attack or even how long it will take to extract the Mind Stone. They don't know the time table, but if the choice is between "killing my friend right now" or "trying to save him" then Cap and most people will choose "try to save him."

When most people are agreeing with Cap, that's not "Cap is right because he's Cap." That's "Cap is right because he's making a morally good decision."

I think I finally understand why Superman's fans get so upset at claims that the character is an invulnerable moral paragon composed of pure rightness.
Except Superman should be a moral paragon composed of pure rightness.

Edited by alliterator on Dec 3rd 2018 at 7:33:18 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#91641: Dec 3rd 2018 at 7:35:02 AM

When you don't know the time table, the correct assumption is not to go, "That must mean we have infinite time."

Imagine that a tsunami could slam into San Francisco at any moment. It could happen in five seconds. It could happen in five weeks. You have no idea when the tsunami will actually hit.

Do you evacuate the city as soon as humanly possible? Or do you leave everyone there and start working on building better detection methods, maybe start researching methods to mitigate the floodwaters, etc.?

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 3rd 2018 at 8:35:38 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Zanthype from The Tardis Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#91642: Dec 3rd 2018 at 7:47:05 AM

What I'm trying to say is that Cap is a legitimately interesting and fascinating character, but he loses a lot of his interesting qualities with the insistence that he must always be an unquestionably just and morally flawless character who emanates absolute truth from his every word and deed.

No one here is saying that though...

"In 900 years of time and space I've never met anyone who wasn't important."
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#91643: Dec 3rd 2018 at 7:48:51 AM

[up][up][up]He isn't. Never has been, never will be.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#91644: Dec 3rd 2018 at 7:58:04 AM

Feels like there are two different conversations going on now. Or rather, it's been that way for a while and only now became obvious.

Edited by VeryMelon on Dec 3rd 2018 at 11:01:05 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#91645: Dec 3rd 2018 at 8:04:39 AM

As an aside: On the far opposite side of the moral spectrum from Cap's moral absolutism, we have Thanos as a profound demonstration of the utilitarian dilemma. Setting aside for a moment the absurdity of Thanos's refusal to even consider alternatives to a problem that may or may not even exist (with a sidenote that his narrow-minded pursuit of only one idea does interestingly contrast against Cap's demand for a Third Option to the exclusion of considering the clear solution), Thanos sets out to do something unthinkably monstrous for the nebulous sake of a greater good.

Thanos stands firmly beside the consequentialist ideal that the outcome of his terrible, terrible crimes outweighs the evil he must commit to bring them about. He believes fully that the ends always justify the means, in stark contrast to Cap's belief that the means always justify the ends.

Which is not in any way to say that Cap is morally equal to Thanos or is equally responsible for the genocide Thanos commits, as I know some of his defenders are already queueing up to jump down my throat about. Only that both have an extreme moral philosophy that they will never compromise on, and the way those philosophies conflict with one another is interesting.

Interestingly, there is another consequentialist actor in the film apart from Thanos: Dr. Strange, who has the benefit of supernatural foresight and thus deems the terrible act of knowingly permitting the genocide to occur as acceptable to bring about the desired outcome he sees in the future.

What separates Strange's consequentialism from Thanos's is that Strange does consider alternatives; we see him perusing the different timelines, seeking a right answer, and only making his decision upon either concluding his review or being awakened by the others (it's ambiguous).

But what separates him from Cap is that once he has an option in front of him that will work, even though it's horrible, he commits to it.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#91646: Dec 3rd 2018 at 8:17:43 AM

When you don't know the time table, the correct assumption is not to go, "That must mean we have infinite time."
They don't assume that. They don't assume anything, they simply try to save Vision's life. And when time runs out to do that, Wanda kills him.

I'm not even saying that Steve is always right — he isn't. His decision to not tell Tony about his parents was, I believe, the wrong one. He was also wrong about the Avengers needing oversight, although Ross was not the person to give that oversight. But in this case, Captain America is making a good, morally sound decision. What you would rather have him do is toss away his morals in an attempt to preemptively save people, but if you could just toss away morals, then they wouldn't be morals, would they?

He isn't. Never has been, never will be.
This is off-topic, but there have been varied and different versions of Superman over the years, but the one that has stuck around the longest is the one that is a moral paragon of pure rightness. (Note: I said Superman is a moral paragon of pure rightness, not Clark Kent.)

On the far opposite side of the moral spectrum from Cap's moral absolutism
You are using "moral absolutism" wrong. Cap doesn't believe in moral absolutism — he doesn't believe certain actions are instrinsically right or wrong. He just isn't willing to sacrifice people if he doesn't have to yet. (Cap does ascribe to moral universalism however.)

Edited by alliterator on Dec 3rd 2018 at 8:18:46 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#91647: Dec 3rd 2018 at 8:48:29 AM

but if you could just toss away morals, then they wouldn't be morals, would they?

Yeah, this is one of those adages that only sounds heroic when it’s applied to Captain America, but becomes considerably grimmer when applied to people with other forms of zeal like Tony Stark or M’baku, then going darker with Killmonger, the Punisher, Ultron, etc.

It’s the “never compromise” speech reworded. As many of us I’m sure have learned the hard way, life can’t function with everyone as a zealot.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Dec 3rd 2018 at 8:51:19 AM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#91648: Dec 3rd 2018 at 8:55:55 AM

Steve is a soldier, other Steve is a surgeon. One trained to sacrifice himself on the front lines for an ideal — the other trained to face up to the inevitability that sooner or later a patient would die on his table. There may come a point where the rest of us can't follow Steve (Rogers) where his ideals may take him, for the sake of our own survival, but I think there's a certain comfort even for someone like Stephen (Strange) in knowing that someone like Captain America or Superman can exist, so that cold, hard logic is not our only recourse. I think all people are really saying is that there's a value in not discarding the very things we're fighting to defend for the sake of an easy victory. Not lightly, at the very least. And that which we leave behind isn't truly lost if it's shared.

[down]Heh, thanks.

Edited by Unsung on Dec 3rd 2018 at 10:21:02 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#91649: Dec 3rd 2018 at 8:57:30 AM

but becomes considerably grimmer when applied to people with other forms of zeal
Then...don't apply it to other forms of zeal? I don't understand the sentence. Also, "morals" really aren't the same thing as "zeal."

It’s the “never compromise” speech reworded.
I think you missed a part of the quote: "Compromise where you can. Where you can't, don't. Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right. Even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye, and say, 'No, you move'." She wasn't saying "Never compromise," she was saying "If you can't compromise, then don't."

[up] Well said!

Edited by alliterator on Dec 3rd 2018 at 9:01:26 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#91650: Dec 3rd 2018 at 9:20:56 AM

Then...don't apply it to other forms of zeal?

Ultron: My uncompromisable moral is peace on Earth by any means necessary. Peace is objectively good.

Cap: Don’t apply it to that!

Ultron: No.

I think you missed a part of the quote: "Compromise where you can

I did not; it wasn’t in the comic version. The movie version is somewhat healthier but Steve sure didn’t listen to the first part.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Dec 3rd 2018 at 9:22:00 AM


Total posts: 186,763
Top