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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#91576: Dec 2nd 2018 at 3:37:56 PM

You mean Shazam

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#91577: Dec 2nd 2018 at 3:40:51 PM

I wonder if it is so smart to release it shortly before the Avengers 4 trailer.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#91578: Dec 2nd 2018 at 3:43:24 PM

Well, we already have one trailer for Captain Marvel, so this would be the second trailer and the first Avengers 4 trailer, which would also presumably have some footage of Captain Marvel in it. So...I think they know what they are doing.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#91579: Dec 2nd 2018 at 3:47:09 PM

[up] Sure, but I fear the actual trailer for Captain Marvel will be forgotten the moment the Avengers trailer is released.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#91580: Dec 2nd 2018 at 3:55:31 PM

The first Black Panther trailer was releasd June 9, 2017. The second trailer was released on October 16, 2017. The first trailer for Infinity War was released November 29, 2017.

...I'm just saying.

BigK1337 Since: Jun, 2012
#91581: Dec 2nd 2018 at 3:59:07 PM

With the combinations of the lukewarm response of the first trailer and the very huge hype people have for Avengers 4, I agree that the second Captain Marvel trailer is going to be overshadow.

Then again with the film coming out soon I don’t really want to see another trailer for the movie as one should be enough.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#91582: Dec 2nd 2018 at 4:01:46 PM

Plus, we shouldn't forget that Infinity makes the point that the sacrifice play doesn't really work for anyone but the villain.

It tries to make that point, because Captain America Is Never Wrong.

But the only reason the sacrifice play doesn't work for either Gamora or Vision is because they stall for time, pursuing Third Options until it's too late to make it. They switch the tracks only once the trolley is already colliding with the five people. In doing so, they manage the impossible and kill all six.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 2nd 2018 at 5:05:58 AM

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alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#91583: Dec 2nd 2018 at 4:07:18 PM

[up] It doesn't work for Gamora because Thanos already has the Reality Stone and can thus change Star-Lord's gun into bubbles. It doesn't work for the Vision because Thanos already has the Time Stone, so can reverse his sacrifice and just take the stone. Neither would have changed if they hadn't stalled.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#91584: Dec 2nd 2018 at 4:13:55 PM

Both would have changed if they hadn't stalled.

Now with Gamora, I can at least understand stalling because there's really no good argument to be made for killing her to destroy the knowledge she possesses before they ever go to Knowhere. Just not bringing her to Knowhere might have been a good idea, but that's beside the point and unrelated to the Trolley Problem.

Vision's a different story. Thanos is able to reverse time to recreate the Mind Gem because he's standing five feet away from it when it's destroyed. It's an effortless matter to just dial back the clock a few seconds in a localized area directly in front of him.

This would not be the case if they'd destroyed the Mind Gem when Vision first volunteered for it. Thanos never would have even known it was gone, let alone be able to determine exactly where and how to use the Time Gem to restore it. It'd have been an afterthought of a memory before he ever even set foot on Earth, and then billions, maybe trillions of people would be alive today.

There was an opportunity to Thwart Stage One by killing Vision. It was rejected for the sake of satisfying Cap's moral high ground, and that rejection led to countless more people dying.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 2nd 2018 at 5:15:10 AM

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Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#91585: Dec 2nd 2018 at 4:17:20 PM

Also consider that if their plan had worked, they'd have had another powerful warrior to send against Thanos.

Not really. They'd have a guy who's still alive, but still too wounded to stand unsupervised, and now has no laser, flight, or phasing powers without the Mind Gem.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Dec 2nd 2018 at 4:17:42 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#91586: Dec 2nd 2018 at 4:20:02 PM

That too. They'd be depowering Vision and there's no way of really knowing what the consequences of that would be.

Cap's philosophy is the perfect example of letting the Perfect be the enemy of the Good. He demanded a flawless resolution where neither Vision nor half the universe had to die, and as a result of his pig-headed insistence on it, we are now at a point where both Vision and half the universe are dead.

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MrHellboy The Shadow from A world of my own Since: Dec, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
The Shadow
#91587: Dec 2nd 2018 at 4:21:12 PM

Off-topic, but a bit of good news on the Guardians front from late last month: https://twitter.com/slashfilm/status/1068036446244630528?s=21

The Russo Brothers have assured that the outcome of the Guardians' story in Avengers 4 will not be altered due to the James Gunn fiasco. IMO, this makes the likelihood of us getting Guardians 3 a little better.

Whether or not certain people (Bautista, etc.) will be part of it is still rather up in the air at the moment, but still, I'll take any good news when I can get it

The hardest thing in this world is to live in it.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#91588: Dec 2nd 2018 at 4:21:19 PM

This would not be the case if they'd destroyed the Mind Gem when Vision first volunteered for it.
That might not be the case, actually. Remember: using the Time Stone in Doctor Strange, Strange was able to transform an apple until it had a bite out of it and until it was rotten and then back again. It doesn't matter when the apple turned rotten, he was able to turn the apple's time forward and back.

Now, if Thanos were to, say, find the Vision's body or even just his head, he could turn back localized time until the Vision's head housed the Mind Stone and then take it again.

Really, the reason Thanos wins is because Strange gives up the Time Stone. And we don't know why he did that yet, only that he had to save Tony....which ironically means that he sacrificed half the universe to save one life in the hopes that saving one life would save half the universe.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#91589: Dec 2nd 2018 at 4:24:51 PM

Strange gets a pass because he looked into the future. Using Space Magic, he witnessed that a freak accident would knock the trolley off its rails before it ever hit the five people if it was allowed to remain on its primary course, and acted based on that specific piece of supernatural foreknowledge.

Steve had no such knowledge when he declared that no one was to touch that switch.

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eligram Since: Sep, 2009 Relationship Status: In denial
#91590: Dec 2nd 2018 at 4:28:53 PM

Oh for the love of... I can't believe people are saying that it was wrong to choose the option that saved everybody. Next you're gonna tell me that Batman way of thinking was right, and that if we believe there’s even a one percent chance that by trying to separate the gem to destroy it without killing him will kill half the universe, we have to take it as an absolute certainty, and we have to destroy him. Yep, that's the heroic thing to do, it seems.

Not that any of that matters, I'm sure Thanos could've rewinded the entire planet to before the gem was destroyed, had they chosen to kill Vision the first chance they got.

Also, maybe a little late to this conversation, but if I used the trolley allegory, it would be like this:

You can divert the trolley onto a different track to kill just one person with thus lever, do nothing and 5 persons dies, or you can use that lever over there that can stop the trolley and save everyone, but it's broken, guarded by a rabid dog, and the chances of you putting down the dog and fixing the lever before it hits someone is about 50/50. Oh, and you can't use that lever if you used the other that diverts the track to kill one person before. Good luck!

As for Cap trading the Wakandians lives instead of Vision's. Even if they destroyed the gem and killed Vision, Thanos would just attack Earth anyway as vengeance. It was a fight they would had to fight regardless of what decision it was taken. And I'm sure they would prefer to fight along earth's mightiest heroes instead of having them dying in other country fighting Thanos army by themselves.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#91591: Dec 2nd 2018 at 4:31:30 PM

Cap's answer to the trolley problem:

"No one touches the switch. We should grab everything we can find and construct a rudimentary cowcatcher on the front of the trolley that will push the five people out of harm's way, thereby saving everyone."

The resolution:

There was nowhere near enough time to do this. The cowcatcher was poorly made and insufficiently attached. As the trolley collided with and killed the five people, the janky cowcatcher flew off from the force of the impact and decapitated the sixth person on the other track.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#91592: Dec 2nd 2018 at 4:36:08 PM

There was an opportunity to Thwart Stage One by killing Vision. It was rejected for the sake of satisfying Cap's moral high ground, and that rejection led to countless more people dying.

...just Cap's? He wasn't the only one who refused to kill Vision. I mean, maybe my point that sparing Vision so they had another fighter is imperfect, but do you really think Cap cares more about being right than doing the right thing? You do really believe he's that chronically selfish?

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#91593: Dec 2nd 2018 at 4:39:44 PM

I think he has a stubborn worldview that refuses to acknowledge the premise of situational morality. It's not about being chronically selfish. It's about having absolute ideals of Right and Wrong that will not waver under any circumstances, even if relentlessly pursuing his ideal of Right ultimately does more harm than good.

It's not that he'd rather "be right" than "do right things". It's that he sees no difference between them. To Cap, if the things he was doing weren't the right things to do, then he wouldn't be doing them.

There is no space in his heart for self-doubt. Only for action.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 2nd 2018 at 5:41:21 AM

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InkDagger Since: Jul, 2014
#91594: Dec 2nd 2018 at 4:42:58 PM

Or that he's so un-empathetic to just murder a friend at the suggestion that it MIGHT fix things. Murdering someone without exploring other options is foolhardy and we'd be having a very different debate if they murdered him only for Thanos to have never gotten the Soul Stone or one of the other plots to somehow stop him. Now you have a friend who never needed to die.

Which, even then, it wouldn't have stopped it anyway as we saw when Thanos just got the mind stone regardless.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#91595: Dec 2nd 2018 at 4:44:19 PM

It feels like Cap's perspective has gotten too narrowed in writing him since The Avengers. In that film, he was perfectly willing to leave Tony trapped with a nuke in space in order to save New York. Thankfully Tony got out in time, but there wasn't much hesitation from him to pick the trolley rail with one person on it.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#91596: Dec 2nd 2018 at 4:50:12 PM

Winter Soldier and subsequently Age of Ultron are were Cap became the "hit five people" guy.

In Winter Soldier, he did the same thing as Infinity War: stubbornly insist on finding a third option to avoid losing either the world or Bucky. If he couldn't solve the problem of the Winter Soldier, then he was content to just never solve it, even if it meant Bucky beat him to death.

That was the first time Cap demanded a Third Option and refused to hear any word about it. But it worked out for him in the end because Captain America Is Always Right.

Age of Ultron subsequently had him make the call again. Here, the trolley was the floating island of Sokovia versus all the Sokovian lives and everyone else in the world. Once more, Cap demanded a Third Option and would not stand for any other ideas. Once again, if they couldn't solve the problem of the floating island without sacrificing the lives on it, then it would just never be solved, end of discussion.

He was rewarded once more for this by the arrival of S.H.I.E.L.D., the organization Cap had done everything in his power to destroy, because Captain America Is Always Right.

Infinity War's his third time playing the, "F*ck you, find a third option," card. It didn't end so well for him this time, which was legitimately surprising.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 2nd 2018 at 5:50:52 AM

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Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#91597: Dec 2nd 2018 at 4:55:34 PM

Hm, I'm not so sure about The Winter Soldier. He was certainly willing to sacrifice himself for Bucky, but when it came down to "Bucky vs the rest of the world" he chose the world, via ordering the Helicarriers shot down with himself and Bucky still aboard.

Even in Age of Ultron, he was reluctantly warming to the "blast it all" option when Black Widow put it in perspective, but we've already debated that a bunch before. tongue

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Dec 2nd 2018 at 4:56:05 AM

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#91599: Dec 2nd 2018 at 5:00:23 PM

That's fair. So one could say it was a gradual transition.

  • Avengers: Sucks to leave Tony in there, but that wall of nuclear fire is headed for the portal and it doesn't look like he's going to make it. Shut it down.
  • Winter Soldier: I'll save Bucky if it kills me but it's not worth the rest of the world. Kill us both if you have to.
  • Age of Ultron: Either we save everyone or we save everyone. There are no other outcomes. (Nat: Seriously?) ...mrr....
  • Infinity War: Nope. I'm done with this. I am done with trolleys. Save everyone, no exceptions, no choices, no sacrifices. Golden Ending or bust, motherf*cker.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 2nd 2018 at 6:01:26 AM

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LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#91600: Dec 2nd 2018 at 5:02:40 PM

I think they've been trying to imply that Cap is developing a bit of an ego. Time and time again, doing what he felt was right turned out to be the best option so come Infinity War he's thinking "Yeah, why can't I save everyone?"

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