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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#91526: Dec 2nd 2018 at 12:09:14 PM

Thanks for the scriptwriting insights, Gaon! On the whole, I agree; except that I vehemently disagree about Thanos having an even marginally valid point, and consider the fact that he comes across (to some viewers) as having one a major weakness of the script.

Here to help! Now, on Thanos's point, I don't mean I agree with him (because I don't). I mean the film plays him as having somewhere in the ballpark of having a point in the broad sense of "there exists a large resource crisis going on and we need to do something about it" (which is true). His solution to that what makes him villainous but the broad principle is correct and the film expects you to understand that. The problem to be debated is if the movie intended to have his solution come across as vaguely having a point (which I too think would be a pretty major fuck-up in scriptwriting terms) or if he's just a madman that comes across as more sympathetic than he should in the eyes of the audience. That's another point Black Panther does better, but I'd comment it still suffers slightly from a lack of commitment in that we don't get to see too much of T'challa's actual idea to help the African and African-American peoples around the world, but that's why we have sequels and the film already had its hands pretty full anyway.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#91527: Dec 2nd 2018 at 12:12:56 PM

Hell, Gamora's probably a double-fridging, since her death gives male pain to Thanos and Peter. Two male pains for the price of one!

Gamora's death doesn't bug me that much, mostly because I don't know whether the next film will undo it or not. If she's still dead and the sequel tries to make Thanos gain sympathy points for killing Gamora, then yeah, that's pretty problematic. If people feel a bit uncomfortable with the whole scenario, I definitely don't blame them, especially as some people seem to unironically think Thanos was in the right throughout the whole film.

It helps soften the blow a little bit since Gamora has the most screen-time out of all the main heroes. I just hope the next film shows how her death has affected Nebula, since I think that part was glossed over in the final film.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#91528: Dec 2nd 2018 at 12:16:39 PM

I couldn't care less that Gamora was killed. Even if she wasn't obviously coming back. That doesn't mean I think Thanos was Right.

Edited by VeryMelon on Dec 2nd 2018 at 3:21:58 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#91529: Dec 2nd 2018 at 12:24:12 PM

Black Panther was also better thematically.

The central thesis of Black Panther is that isolationist policy is toxic and harmful.

The central thesis of Infinity War is that it is never acceptable to consider the needs of the many to outweigh the needs of the few; if you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs, then you have a moral responsibility to let your family starve.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#91530: Dec 2nd 2018 at 12:30:53 PM

[up]While I agree that Black Panther was better thematically, you could make an argument that Infinity War was arguing the opposite of what you said. They did put the needs of the few ahead of the needs of the many... but because they did that, they failed and lost everything.

Edited by LordVatek on Dec 2nd 2018 at 3:31:17 PM

This song needs more love.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#91531: Dec 2nd 2018 at 12:34:34 PM

Wonder how come Vision’s death isn’t consider a contender for fridge stuffing? I mean he does not really have much of a defining character arc aside from being Wanda’s love interest and a MacGuffin. He is content with going with the death option of destroying the gem.

Vision has much more agency in his fate. He chose to flee the Avengers and turn off his tracking to be AWOL with Wanda. He is the one to suggest killing himself to destroy the Gem, and is ultimately proven right that it's the only practical option. When the surgery is attempted, Vision decides to break out when it ends up putting people in danger. He also saves Cap and kills Corvus Glaive, the enemy who wounded Vision in the first place. So Vision gets closure in his death through a Taking You with Me, something Gamora does not get.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Dec 2nd 2018 at 12:36:26 PM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#91532: Dec 2nd 2018 at 12:42:35 PM

The central thesis of Infinity War is that it is never acceptable to consider the needs of the many to outweigh the needs of the few

Hmm. I got the opposite (though I still don't like it.)

Every one of the heroes defending a Gem can't bear to kill their friend even though they know countless lives are at stake. Or they only do it too late for it to matter. Thanos is the only one who can kill his "loved one" immediately. As he puts it, he's "the only one willing to act".

So the thesis is that the heroes' soft hearts are dumb, Thanos is the logical one who can bear to break a few eggs, and that's why he wins and they lose.

(And I hate it because it makes all the Avengers look stupid and selfish, and they've demonstrated plenty of times in the past that they can absolutely sacrifice their friends if the need is urgent.)

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Dec 2nd 2018 at 12:43:04 PM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#91533: Dec 2nd 2018 at 12:43:18 PM

Gamora's scene would've had more impact if she got to defiantly Face Death with Dignity.

BigK1337 Since: Jun, 2012
#91534: Dec 2nd 2018 at 12:48:30 PM

@Tobias Drake I thought the central thesis of Infinity War was not allowing emotion to overpower doing what’s right?

I mean yeah the film deconstructs the Needs of the Many logic with Thanos who is the villain(and hero), but I think the message I interpret seems better in comparisson as a lot of the tragedies could of been prevented if the heroes didn’t let their own feelings cloud their judgement.

Which is why I actually really like Scarlet Witch’s character arc in the movie. She is the most conflicted in destroying Vision (the second of the main three fridged characters in the film) as she has developed a really close relationship with the robot and wanted to go with the third option of seperating the stone from Vision’s core. But when everything all failed and Thanos draws closer to Vision, Wanda has to buckle down and destroy the gem as she is the only one who can save the universe. She is of course reluctant, but with the knowledge of saving everybody and Vision himself wouldn’t want the universe doomed because of him staying alive Wanda does the hard task of killing her lover.

In a sense the Vision Scarlet Witch plot actually reconstructs the Needs of the Many logic that Thanos has been destroying throughout the film.

@Tuckerscreator

Good point. He does get closure. Though I do find Gamora’s death to be more of a tragic conclusion to her story arc. In all three of her movie appearances Gamora has been trying to undermine Thanos’s Quest in obtaining the Infinity Stones. She did this because she hates Thanos for killing her family/homeworld and enslaving her as one of his daughter. So in IW, the final hour is drawing near and Gamora must ensure that Thanos does not get the Soul Gem from her. There was a hope spot for her as Red Skull states that the only way Thanos can get the gem is by killing a love one, which would of been a happy conclusion in stopping Thanos mad quest as she believes he is a complete sociopath who loved no one thus being the ultimate comeuppance to the man she hated. But in a cruel tragic irony, Thanos viewing Gamora as a daughter he loved was indeed real and he is willing to kill her to further his goal. So in the end it was a prettt good Shakespherian conclusion for Gamora’s arc: she spent all her time trying to stop someone she believes loves nothing, only to know that he does and his love for her is the key to furthing his evil scheme.

Edited by BigK1337 on Dec 2nd 2018 at 4:03:15 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#91535: Dec 2nd 2018 at 12:48:39 PM

[up][up]She tried to do that earlier when she asked Peter to kill her if she got caught.

Thanos wouldn't let her. He stole her opportunity to die on her own terms, then forced her to die not only for his mission, but also his development.

Though when I think about it, Gamora's attempts to fight back are (in universe) because she knows her death will bugger everything for everyone (or at least bring Thanos closer to doing that). That being said, the moment where she's futilely struggling while he prepares to throw her to her death is understandably pretty bad.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Dec 2nd 2018 at 1:48:55 PM

One Strip! One Strip!
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#91536: Dec 2nd 2018 at 12:53:51 PM

"why Thor's "What else do I have to lose?" monologue with Rocket is my favorite scene in the movie)"

Yeah, it was for me the first time in....forever to actually treat Thor with seriousness instead of the "hot and funny guy" of the avengers, I was a surprised to see some levity around him which it surprise me a lot.

" I consider the fact that he comes across (to some viewers) as having one a major weakness of the IW script."

Yeah, like Zemo I feel people giving too much credit for Thannos for pretty much not sound like a generic and steriotypical villian but so far is point and motivation are terrible.

Tucker: on the other hand that sound too much of agency to count, Vision try because he is a living target and he set the entire plot because of how he is rather of what he does, expend the entire movie hiding and then dying, Gamora kinda does more with her screentime actually.

Edited by unknowing on Dec 2nd 2018 at 5:02:27 AM

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#91537: Dec 2nd 2018 at 1:10:24 PM

The only issue I have with Thanos’ motivation is the Word of God reveal long after the movie came out that he wiped out half of animal & plant life too.

Because that makes no sense at all. Plants & animals are a resource, why would he get rid of resources.

I can understand wanting to wipe out sentient life. We humans use up more resources than we actually need but that’s it. With only that his motivation as a bug-fucking insane warlord makes sense but with he animal & plant logic, he loses every sense of the word.

That’s why I invoke Death of the Author in this aspect.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 2nd 2018 at 1:11:57 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#91538: Dec 2nd 2018 at 1:15:08 PM

To be clear here, I am not trying to convince anyone of my opinion, nor do I feel attacked by anyone. But this is a discussion forum, so when I voice an opinion, it is only good tone to explain how I end up with this opinion.

I agree that it is easier to compare Black Panther to Winter Solider or another of the more standard Marvel movies. Which is actually a good idea, because that makes it easier to explain why I feel specifically the scrip of Black Panther lacking. Let's start with character introduction: If you compare how The Winter Soldier introduces Sam as a new character and re-establishes characters like Cap, Fury and Natasha with how Black Panther introduces its cast, you will notice that there are worlds between them. In the Winter Soldier, a lot is transported just through visuals, and the part which is in the dialogues never comes off like a big exposition dumb (even though that's what it actually is). Black Panther on the other hand is a little bit, well, clumsy. It comes very, very close to outright narrating what the audience is supposed to pick up. Hell, a huge part of the introduction is narration which isn't half as well integrated into the movie as it is the case with The Winter Soldier, where the big information dumb about the first movie also serves to establish how lost and isolated Steve is in the new world. But in Black Panther, we get the equivalent of a title crawl, just with nifty graphics instead of text, and then it doesn't even manage to put all the relevant information into it, instead the movie keeps telling (instead of showing) the audience new information until way, way into the movie.

Then there is the misdirect. Not being a comic book reader, I was honestly caught by surprise about the identity of the Winter Soldier. But after seeing the start of Black Panther I immediately thought: Okay, this little boy is the villain, right?

Then there are the action scenes. In The Winter Soldier every single action scene is telling the audience something about the characters. But what exactly is the point of the chase scene in Hong Kong in Black Panther? It only seems to be there because it was time for another action scene at this point. It doesn't really add anything to the plot, they could have just as well ended the scene in the casino and nothing would have been lost in the actual narrative.

There is more, but let's do the jump to infinity war. It has an herculean task in terms catching the audience up, and it is a little bit funny how Bruce is basically the audience member who hasn't seen an Avengers movie since age of Ultron BUT it is also pretty smart. But let's just take the scene when the Guardians show up: Before they even talk a world you already know a lot about them and how they changed in the four years. Just by the way Gamora is openly enjoying the music and the way Groot behaves. It is just brilliant.

The misdirect is masterfully too. The movie keeps the audience the whole time in the belief that there is a realistic chance for the heroes to win. And finally there are the action scenes. There is so much, well, character in the fight scenes, they never get boring. And they are all designed in a way that the audience gets the full "scope" so to speak regarding methods to fight Thanos.

Don't get me wrong here, there are other aspects in Black Panther I do consider award worthy. The costume design for starters. But there are two areas in which I feel Infinity was is superior. One is the CGI. And the other is the quality of the screenplay. From structure to dialogue, it is just on a different level in my eyes.

Edited by Swanpride on Dec 2nd 2018 at 1:15:48 AM

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#91539: Dec 2nd 2018 at 1:16:14 PM

I'm with Tobias on Infinity War. The basic thesis was that the voluntary self-sacrifice of one person is an unacceptable price to pay for preserving the lives of trillions (Cap's "we don't trade lives", among other moments). It made the heroes look like idiots; and, moreover, made them - Cap's team, and Gamora, and Quill - look self-absorbed, because on numerous occasions throughout the film, characters decided that the life of one person they cared about meant more to them than the lives of trillions whom they had never met.

If you interpret that as "Thanos was right and the heroes were wrong and weak", that's morally horrific; plus it's preposterous in drawing an equivalence between "let one person sacrifice themselves to save trillions" and "muder one person you care about in order to acquire the power to kill trillions"; plus it still makes the heroes look like idiots.

Edited by Galadriel on Dec 2nd 2018 at 4:21:55 AM

Zanthype from The Tardis Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#91540: Dec 2nd 2018 at 1:16:15 PM

[up][up][up]I was actually just listening to the Infinity War commentary with the Russo's and the writers, and they bring up the fact that Thanos' plan doesn't make sense when you actually think about it.

They said that although he might sound like a thoughtful, put together guy, he's ultimately a sociopath who came up with the idea to wipe out half of his own planet to keep it from being completely destroyed. When everyone rebuffs his idea and Titan is wiped out he views it as a vindication of his plan, and being a narcissist, becomes fixated on it as the only way to "save the universe" even if it's not actually the best way to go about it.

Edited by Zanthype on Dec 2nd 2018 at 1:17:14 AM

"In 900 years of time and space I've never met anyone who wasn't important."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#91541: Dec 2nd 2018 at 1:18:52 PM

That was exactly how I interpreted his character.

He just wants to prove his original thesis correct.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Dec 2nd 2018 at 4:19:18 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#91542: Dec 2nd 2018 at 1:19:24 PM

Cap is right. Once you trade lives, you have already lost this particular war. The only reason why Quill and Wanda trying to do it is acceptable is because they only try to do it once it is truly the very last option, and with the blessing of the one they kill.

Zanthype from The Tardis Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#91543: Dec 2nd 2018 at 1:23:30 PM

I have a serious question because I see the, "the heroes are just selfish idiots for not murdering their loved ones" thing a lot.. Would yall seriously be able to do the same? Really think about this. Not what you think you would do, but what you'd actually do. Because I'm willing to bet most people would find it impossible to obliterate their sibling or their lover.

"In 900 years of time and space I've never met anyone who wasn't important."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#91544: Dec 2nd 2018 at 1:23:36 PM

The only reason why Quill and Wanda trying to do it is acceptable is because they only try to do it once it is truly the very last option.

And look how that turned out.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Dec 2nd 2018 at 1:24:25 AM

Nouct over the front from an east coast Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies
over the front
#91545: Dec 2nd 2018 at 1:24:51 PM

But what exactly is the point of the chase scene in Hong Kong in Black Panther?
It took place in South Korea

Also I feel that they should've let a little more time to sink in when Quill and Wanda did ultimately pull the trigger but nope gotta immediately null them with the macguffins so Thanos can swagger about in the story as the only one who has the courage to make the sacrifice

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#91546: Dec 2nd 2018 at 1:25:04 PM

[up][up][up][up]Problem with that is he kinda already do that when you fight, only your own but your parners, hell in civil war he sugest burton idea of living them behind so they can take the winter soldiers of zemo.

Edited by unknowing on Dec 2nd 2018 at 5:30:18 AM

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#91547: Dec 2nd 2018 at 1:26:41 PM

Swanpride: They do trade lives in Infinity War. They trade the lives of numerous nameless Wakandan soldiers to protect Vision. So Cap's statement boils down to "the lives of main characters are more important than the lives of extras", which is really not a strong moral statement.

EDIT: Sorry, I deleted the more philosophical part of my post as I decided it was tangential to my main argument.

Why is it acceptable for T'Challa to order hundreds of Wakandan soldiers to die to protect Vision, but not for Cap to let Vision voluntarily choose to sacrifice himself?

Edited by Galadriel on Dec 2nd 2018 at 4:36:39 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#91548: Dec 2nd 2018 at 1:29:04 PM

Sorry, South Korea then. It was the "appeal to the asian market" scene, and it felt that way.

[up] No, I don't. I promote Civil Courage. If you go down the "sacrificing one for the many" road, you are on a very slippery slope.

Edited by Swanpride on Dec 2nd 2018 at 1:31:42 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#91549: Dec 2nd 2018 at 1:30:21 PM

Yeah, that scene definitely felt pander-y.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#91550: Dec 2nd 2018 at 1:35:37 PM

That scene in South Korea is pretty amusing when you ask "why are we in South Korea now?" tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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