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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#91501: Dec 2nd 2018 at 10:53:24 AM

As everyone keeps saying Black Panther has less external constraints on the plot and characters and is thus able to do more with what it is. I prefer it to Infinity War for the same reason I think The Winter Soldier is a stronger film than Civil War, even though Civil War might have done more admirable things with juggling its enormous cast. Infinity War is an achievement but while it's still a very good film on its own, it suffers from obvious structural flaws inextricable from its premise that Black Panther doesn't.

Edited by AlleyOop on Dec 2nd 2018 at 1:59:32 PM

AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#91502: Dec 2nd 2018 at 10:55:15 AM

Yeah, Tobias nailed it. That scene alone may be enough to make me prefer at least five other movies, judging by my personal rankings.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#91503: Dec 2nd 2018 at 10:58:00 AM

I think Infinity War is the better movie because of how great it was despite how huge its task was. Black Panther is good, but I think it's at the bottom of my top ten from last I checked.

Edited by VeryMelon on Dec 2nd 2018 at 1:59:02 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#91504: Dec 2nd 2018 at 10:58:04 AM

That is a huge challenge which I think should get honoured.
Which is fine. That's your opinion. Nobody is attacking you for your opinion. We are merely expressing a different opinion.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#91505: Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:00:01 AM

Glad to see you're improving with debates. Feels like it would have saved you a lot of trouble in the past if you handled things like this more.

Edited by VeryMelon on Dec 2nd 2018 at 2:12:28 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#91507: Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:09:10 AM

I didn't mean to come off as attacking you. Just saying you're doing better when it comes to debates and it shows a lot more recently.

Edited by VeryMelon on Dec 2nd 2018 at 2:12:50 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#91508: Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:13:59 AM

Except, again, it's unnecessary. And all this is doing now is pushing things off topic. So how about we stick to the actual topic on hand? Which is that Black Panther is clearly the superior film and anyone who thinks differently should be burned as a witch.

AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#91509: Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:19:03 AM

I won't rag on anyone who prefers Infinity War. It's just that between the two it's quite clear which one I'd rather come back to.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#91510: Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:21:36 AM

Well I'm the one guy who doesn't care to watch Homecoming, so I feel comfortable saying this Infinity War or Black Panther discussion shows a difference in viewing priority.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#91511: Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:29:57 AM

And I honestly don’t have much of a problem towards that “one” scene in IW that much.

I just find using it to automatically lower the movies standing to be rather petty.

Actually checking that list, IW really does deserve a couple more nominations?

What it didn’t have an impressive ensemble cast & shit? tongue

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:31:23 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#91512: Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:30:51 AM

Infinity War is pretty dependent on having watched at least a few of the previous MCU movies. Someone with no previous familiarity with the MCU would have no idea who half the cast are or why they should care about them. A great movie should be good in its own right, not just as the conclusion of a franchise arc.

So I'd agree that Black Panther is more deserving. It also has better dialogue and stronger themes than IW, and it develops its own characters and relationships, whereas IW is mostly relying on characterization set up in the earlier films.

EDIT: Seriously, what did TV Tropes do that made all the links stop working? It's a real pain.

Edited by Galadriel on Dec 2nd 2018 at 2:31:35 PM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#91513: Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:36:44 AM

I'm a scriptwriter by trade and I regularly make a living by giving scriptwriting workshops. Now with that said, I'm not pulling rank or saying that makes my opinion more justified than anyone's, just contextualizing my statements here. I have spent some time thinking about the script structure of both Infinity War and Black Panther. For me, both films have very impressive scripts but they're hard to compare in brute terms because they're taking different approaches.

Black Panther is better if we're talking traditional scriptwriting. The way it sets up the world and culture of Wakanda seamlessly (and as it introduces every important character with their nuances) is already pretty great, but the real brilliance lies in the Decon-Recon Switch of the second half showing the darker side of Wakanda and the greater nuances of several characters (W'kabi's more villainous side, Killmonger's and M'baku's more heroic sides, T'chaka's much more morally ambiguous sides, e.t.c). It's an all-round great script in the classic mold, but it does follow a more classic structure of set up and pay off. What raises it to a brilliant level is how seamlessly it is executed and the bold themes it tackles.

By contrast, what I was awestruck by Infinity War is the sheer ambition of it and the bizarre ping-pong structure it adopted. It is a film with a unholy amount of characters and arcs to accompany said characters. It is utter insanity from a scriptwriting perspective where to juggle over a dozen protagonists and their character arcs from scene to scene while moving the plot forwards and managing to not turn it into a bloated, confusing mess. It's a feat I haven't quite seen since the Lord of the Rings trilogy, and even LOTR was dealing with a marginally smaller cast. It's truly a highly impressive writing feat from any way you slice it. In contrast, while it explores some very interesting philosophical themes, Black Panther is way ahead on the game on that front. I figure the simple structure of Black Panther facilitates tackling such themes while Infinity War is so busy with this absolutely insane structure it kind of has its hands full just making the movie goddamn work.

Curiously, both scripts have very similar beats. A tragic villain with halfway solid philosophical point and a narrative that leaves the question somewhat open-ended about how wrong they were and both have more set-up first acts until a big game-changing event kicks stuff into high gear (the reveal about Killmonger and Thanos's act of human sacrifice).

Ultimately I think both are great but have too vastly different structures to really be boiled down to "which is better?". It just depends on what's your speed and what you value more.

Winter Soldier and Black Panther (the two MCU movies with the best "traditional" scripts if you ask me) are a better source of a comparison.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#91514: Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:37:18 AM

Black Panther is a fine film, but I didn't feel blown away by it. In particular, it's narrative structure is a bit messy and the climax of the film is only okay. The final fight between T'Chala and Killmonger is pretty meh, definitely one of the weaker action climaxes in the MCU, and also weaker than their earlier fight where they didn't have superpowers.

Infinity War, on the other hand, is one of the most epic films I've ever seen, with a brilliantly and tightly written script that turns traditional movie-making on its head by making the villain of a huge crossover movie also the protagonist. Infinity War has one of the best screenplays I've ever seen in film in general, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it being used in college film writing classes in the future.

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#91515: Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:38:33 AM

Black Panther has its' problems, but it definitely has a stronger script and direction. The way it unveiled the events of the Oakland apartment and Erik's backstory in piecemeal was particularly excellent. I also really enjoyed how the entire supporting cast gets individual moments to offer their perspective on the events of the story, which in turn makes T'Challa a stronger character by listening to them (which was advice given by his father on how to be a good king).

Infinity War largely manages to reach more spectacular heights because of the absurd number of characters and massive stakes, but its' problem with both script and direction lies in just how streamlined the entire narrative had to be in order to fit all those characters and all those plotlines. Because "must stop Thanos" is the absolute priority there was functionally no room to acknowledge personal investment, remind us of interpersonal relationships or build new relationships with any significance, all character beats are isolated vignettes rather than building on the story. Bruce and Natasha was a single line of dialogue with a longing glance, Steve and Bucky was a handshake with a smile and "good to see you," Rhodey doesn't even hesitate to welcome Steve and team back to the Avengers compound, etc. Thor wakes up, exchanges banter with the Guardians and leaves in the shuttle all within the same three-ish minute scene, which exemplifies how truncated every plot point is (and also a reason why Thor's "What else do I have to lose?" monologue with Rocket is my favorite scene in the movie).

BigK1337 Since: Jun, 2012
#91516: Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:39:50 AM

@slimcoder What scene? Wait, you mean the almost everybody dies ending? Yeah I don’t get why people complaining about that ending. Its fitting with the whole Empire Strikes Back tone it was going for and if they treat Thanos as the film’s real hero.

Also amazing how my comment bitching about an award show not giving Infinity War any more domination it deserves led to the forum getting defensive on how Black Panther is the better movie than Infinity War. And vice versa.

I mean, c’mon, I didn’t even includ IW for Best Director or Best Supporting Actors field.

Edited by BigK1337 on Dec 2nd 2018 at 2:42:58 PM

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#91517: Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:39:55 AM

I like Infinity War more but Black Panther is the better movie.

This song needs more love.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#91518: Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:41:48 AM

[up][up] Well I was actually referring to Gamora’s death but sure that also works too.

Not sure why anyone would have a problem with the dusting.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#91519: Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:49:39 AM

Thanks for the scriptwriting insights, Gaon! On the whole, I agree. I find Black Panther better because, to me, characterization and themes are more important to having a good story than juggling a huge number of pieces is.

The one thing I vehemently disagree about is the idea that Thanos has an even marginally valid point. I consider the fact that he comes across (to some viewers) as having one a major weakness of the IW script.

Edited by Galadriel on Dec 2nd 2018 at 2:54:21 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#91520: Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:51:08 AM

The repetitiveness is really a sticking point here. Hammering in the futility of the characters’ endeavor is one thing, but even so the plotcould have used maybe one less iteration of the same nigh-identical sequences - which is definitely a script thing.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#91521: Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:53:05 AM

[up][up] It doesn’t matter If makes sense or not.

Just that Thanos is too bull-headed to ever stop.

[up] Which film are you referring too as repetitive?

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:53:37 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
BigK1337 Since: Jun, 2012
#91522: Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:54:05 AM

[up]x4 Oh. Thought it was the dusting as one of the comments says “fridging the entire cast”, which implies that.

Actually would her death count as fridge stuffing? I mean Thanos brutally kills her and it is done to create great anguish TO Thanos. I mean sure that might for Peter Quill who now wants revenge on Thanos for killing his love interest, but with how the movie is structured it seems like it was meant to impact on Thanos more in what I would say is an ofd Adaptional Nice Guy moment for such character.

Edited by BigK1337 on Dec 2nd 2018 at 2:56:10 PM

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#91523: Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:56:51 AM

Gamora dying is still primarily about a male character's pain rather than Gamora's own arc, so it's a fridging. Making it about the pain of the male character who killed her makes it a particularly perverse type of fridging, but still a fridging.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#91524: Dec 2nd 2018 at 12:01:46 PM

Yeah, there are prior examples of fridging used to create pain for the guy who killed the victim in question, such as Anakin and Padme, or Kariya and Aoi. Thanos is not an exception.

BigK1337 Since: Jun, 2012
#91525: Dec 2nd 2018 at 12:08:43 PM

[up]x2 and [up] Conversely to that. Wonder how come Vision’s death isn’t consider a contender for fridge stuffing? I mean he does not really have much of a defining character arc aside from being Wanda’s love interest and a MacGuffin. He is contempt with going with the death option of destroying the gem. His death is pretty much to give Scarlet Witch an emotional moment as she was the one who was trying the most to prevent Vision’s death. And his death will most likelu serve as motivation from Wanda to get revenge on Thanos (she is one of the people not dusted right).

It doesn’t help that Thano relates with Wanda in killing a love one for the good of the universe.

Edited by BigK1337 on Dec 2nd 2018 at 3:10:33 PM


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