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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#91226: Nov 27th 2018 at 4:29:37 PM

I was reading quotes from Joss about the original Avengers and came across this:

It's a film about lonely people, because I'm making it, and my pony only does one trick.

Man, I miss his humor some days. Markus and McFeely are good writers, but Whedon's writing always gave us a lot more memorable lines. I can't really remember a single line from Civil War that was very memorable. (I also think that Whedon started Tony on the path that the Russos built on, but that's another post.)

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#91227: Nov 27th 2018 at 4:32:49 PM

[up][up]It was definitely the emotional fuel behind fans fixating on these small details, yeah. I honestly was always a bit dismissive of the theory because it seemed too... easy, y’know? A fan girl excuse to minimize Loki’s violence.

But. I did always think Avengers Loki felt a bit OOC and maniacal compared to Thor 1, especially the idiotic Hitler vibe he picked up. I blamed crappy Whedon writing, but I’m happy to retroactively add some sceptre mojo amping up Loki’s worst inclinations.

Still doesn’t excuse his attempted genocide of Jotunheim though. I may enjoy Loki, but he massively crossed the line there. Granted, Thor 2 and 3 have walked it back and put him solidly into the friendly villain box.

But Jotunheim still matters. Most people’s temper tantrums don’t include NUKING AN ENTIRE PLANET.

[up] Really? I can’t remember a single line from Ao U except the scene with Black Widow being sterile (and I only remember it because I HATE it).

But Civil War? Lemme see, off the top of my head...

“Can you move your seat up?”

“No”

“You couldn’t have done that earlier?”

“I hate you”

“Underoos!”

“So, what, you really like cats?”

“We’re still friends, right?”

“Depends how hard you hit me.”

“I said I’d help you find him, not catch him.”

“The world is not done with you yet.”

Edited by wisewillow on Nov 27th 2018 at 7:37:39 AM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#91228: Nov 27th 2018 at 4:33:08 PM

While I don't think it should excuse his murders, having watched Thor 1 after Avengers I did find his demeanor in Avengers to be shockingly, even irritatingly over-the-top upon rewatch. Reminds me of the remedial Fan Wank to explain the difference between Avengers Cap vs trilogy Cap and how fans attributed it to him having been so recently defrosted in order to explain his Whedon-induced personality shifts, because it was also that egregious.

Joss Whedon can make entertaining scenes but he also knows how to make his characters annoy you to death with their antics and Loki was one of them. The scepter can now serve as an in-universe justification for Whedon's Flanderization.

[up][nja]

Edited by AlleyOop on Nov 27th 2018 at 7:56:31 AM

Zanthype from The Tardis Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#91229: Nov 27th 2018 at 4:33:24 PM

It was always a pretty blatant way of whitewashing and excusing Loki's acts in the Avengers because people couldn't accept their poor misunderstood woobie could have gone full Mussolini (despite an actual act of genocide in his previous film). If you held the theory for different reasons that's on you, but that was always the root of the theory.

There are always people that will reach to make excuses for their favorite characters and let behavior slide in fiction that would never fly for them in real life.

But I don't think that means that this theory is bad or that it doesn't make sense. Given where Marvel has chosen to go with film!Loki, I think this actually helps his characterization throughout the films feel more consistent. The writing for Avengers!Loki I think honestly does stick out in comparison to how he's characterized in the other movies IMO, and the scepter addition makes it gel more with where they've taken him.

Whoa, I got super ninja'd.

Edited by Zanthype on Nov 27th 2018 at 4:35:28 AM

"In 900 years of time and space I've never met anyone who wasn't important."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#91230: Nov 27th 2018 at 4:39:07 PM

I mean, Whedon himself said that Thor Loki was different from Avengers Loki. I think he even stated that his experiences traveling through the wormhole and encountering the Other (and Thanos) changed him.

AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#91231: Nov 27th 2018 at 4:43:41 PM

[up][up][up][up]"...Anyone got some orange slices?"

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#91232: Nov 27th 2018 at 4:55:07 PM

Whedon's style of humor may have been refreshingly irreverent when he first made a name for himself but nowadays it comes off as smug and self-congratulatorily trying too hard. It's a case of "Seinfeld" Is Unfunny and another casualty of him refusing to adapt to the times. Markus and McFeely go for a much drier and situational style of humor so viewers can appreciate the snark without feeling quite as taken out of the scene.

Zanthype from The Tardis Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#91233: Nov 27th 2018 at 4:57:25 PM

I just want to second that his Hitler vibe was stupid. Maybe I'm just tired of writers using Hitler and nazi imagery to make their villain look like, well, a villain, but the fact that Whedon had him go subjugate a group of Germans and then have Cap show up and all but state "You're being very Hitler right now." just felt so lazy to me.

[up][awesome]That's how I feel about it.

I think one of the most Whedon-y scenes in the whole movie is this exchange:

"The man out of time." "I'm not the one that's out of time."

It feels so un-natural sounding and so obviously written for the sake of having a pun. A lot of Whedon's dialogue is like that, where characters always have a snappy, jokey response to things to the point that it's just distracting.

Edited by Zanthype on Nov 27th 2018 at 5:02:37 AM

"In 900 years of time and space I've never met anyone who wasn't important."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#91234: Nov 27th 2018 at 4:59:04 PM

I mean, which jokes exactly come off as "smug and self-congratulatory"? Because most of the time, it just sounds like the characters always have a witty retort, not that they are any in way smug (except for Tony Stark, who should be smug).

AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#91235: Nov 27th 2018 at 5:04:01 PM

Yeah, I haven't seen Avengers 1 or 2 in a while but my drive to revisit either of them just isn't there. They're both so...outclassed. I could name like 10 other MCU movies I'd gladly watch instead. Hell, I'd rather go watch the first Thor if only because I haven't actually seen it in full and am curious.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#91236: Nov 27th 2018 at 5:05:09 PM

They're both so...outclassed.
Really? Because I still consider the first Avengers to probably be the best MCU movie there is.

Zanthype from The Tardis Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#91237: Nov 27th 2018 at 5:15:48 PM

I do consider Avengers 1 to be a landmark and a huge achievement, but as far as enjoyment goes, I gotta put Winter Soldier and Infinity War first. Everything about those movies just work for me, especially the emotional beats.

"In 900 years of time and space I've never met anyone who wasn't important."
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#91238: Nov 27th 2018 at 5:15:49 PM

[up][up][up] Go watch it now; it is a golden retriever that’s always happy to see you.

[up] [up]Really? It’s midrange for me; above IM 2 but below Guardians, Black Panther, Homecoming, Ragnarok, the Cap trilogy...

Edited by wisewillow on Nov 27th 2018 at 8:21:33 AM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#91239: Nov 27th 2018 at 5:20:09 PM

In the case of Avengers 1 the humor worked for the most part because the film was sold as campy and focused on the sheer spectacle. It still had its share of cringy jokes for the sake of a joke regardless of whether it made sense for the character ("that's not a party" and "he's adopted" being among the most blatant) but either Whedon held himself back or Marvel exerted stronger quality control leading to the film being genuinely funny and entertaining on the whole in spite of frequent moments of obnoxiousness with the characterization.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#91240: Nov 27th 2018 at 5:21:59 PM

Yeah the future movies do surpass Avengers in character development & plotting.

Goes to show ya how things have improved.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#91241: Nov 27th 2018 at 5:22:37 PM

I’m always real mad when I remember “he’s adopted.” It’s not in character for Thor, it’s not that funny, and it’s kinda dickish to adopted kids in the audience as “haha you don’t count.”

Edited by wisewillow on Nov 27th 2018 at 8:22:58 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#91242: Nov 27th 2018 at 5:23:12 PM

That's probably due to Joss not writing the characters anymore,what good is a good trick pony anyway?

[up][up]

Edited by Ultimatum on Nov 27th 2018 at 5:23:39 AM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#91243: Nov 27th 2018 at 5:28:11 PM

Man. Joss's stock really fell huh?

I honestly have no problems with the he's adopted joke, but I'm not gonna defend it.

I know it turned out the dude cheated on his wife, but it feels like there's so much more to the hatred, like he some how personally offended every person on the planet.

Bah. I got no beef, but I got no interest in defending him. Hate away everyone.

....I still like Age of Ultron.

One Strip! One Strip!
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#91244: Nov 27th 2018 at 5:30:19 PM

I like Age of Ultron too and really hope he shows up again in the future

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#91245: Nov 27th 2018 at 5:32:33 PM

Got G 1/2, Civil War, Ragnarok, Homecoming, Black Panther, Infinity War, they all offer me more or the same but better. And yeah, I'll look into greeting that golden retriever soon ;p

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#91246: Nov 27th 2018 at 5:34:27 PM

I came to these beliefs on my own and you can scroll all the way back for proof. While I definitely think a lot of the hate is the product of bandwagoning and it being cool to hate on him now, especially on Tumblr where some of it gets ridiculous to the point of insane conspiracy theories and false fronts over whether he deserved death threats, I've never been particularly enthralled with Whedon to begin with.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#91247: Nov 27th 2018 at 5:35:24 PM

Personally, Loki going full genocidal was one of the Whedonian changes of character that never actually bothered me. I always saw Thor 1 as Loki's Start of Darkness, where we see him slowly unravel. The point he pretty much tries to kill himself in the climax (remember: nobody drops him. Loki deliberately lets go off Odin's hand in a pretty obvious attempt to kill himself) is his Despair Event Horizon. Him in the Avengers I always saw as him going full unhinged, having lost everything that teetered him to stability (his family, his Asgardian identity, e.t.c) and just dropping all moral compunctions.

Ever since the Avengers release I thought Loki, having finally become just as petty, destructive and machiavellian as his comic book self, would finally ascend to his full on maniacal villain status and this turn of the more tragic Loki to the more unhinged Loki would be explored further in Thor 2 and 3. Instead, the MCU decided to walk its walk back (probably after realizing woobie Loki was a hit with the fanbase) and treat him like a poor misunderstood woobie/comic relief, which does disapoint me to a great extent though I like Friendly Villain Loki from Thor Ragnarok.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#91248: Nov 27th 2018 at 5:38:14 PM

I also enjoy feral angry revenge driven Loki from Thor 2. Like, the movie has problems, but the Loki and family elements are great.

Zanthype from The Tardis Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#91249: Nov 27th 2018 at 5:46:13 PM

but it feels like there's so much more to the hatred, like he some how personally offended every person on the planet.

I don't think it's any one particular thing, but a bunch of things that have stacked up lately.

Like a lot of people have said, his humor hasn't aged well for many, some of his jokes feel not only ooc but offensive, certain story beats didn't work and many people found Nat's scene about being sterilized not just cringy, but insulting to women due to how the dialogue flows (Nat asking if she's a monster right after divulging this).

Then things in his personal life like cheating on his wife, and there were also allegations from his ex that he was verbally abusive. And his brand of feminism has been under fire lately for being fetishistic, but someone else could explain this one way better than I can.

"In 900 years of time and space I've never met anyone who wasn't important."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#91250: Nov 27th 2018 at 5:55:08 PM

Shipping is also an element. Quite a lot of vitriol came from Clintasha fans, who went from praising Whedon as a genius to hating his guts for sinking their ship. As well as a portion of rabid Steve Yaoi Fangirls bitter that he was continuing along with the already-canon Steggy relationship instead of going with Steve/Bucky or Steve/Sam (likewise Steve/Tony fans who love the Avengers film despise the Russos for Civil War).


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