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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#91101: Nov 23rd 2018 at 5:36:05 AM

[up] Urgh...don't remind me...next you are telling me, that you loved the Inhumans but hated Agents of Shield and that The Incredible Hulk is one of your favourite Marvel movies.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#91102: Nov 23rd 2018 at 5:38:58 AM

Oh no, Inhumans is the definite low point of the entire MCU. I think that isn't even debatable, whoever finds anything redeeming about this piece of crap has yet to be found grin

Incredible Hulk on the other hand.....yeah, I actually liked the movie. It wasn't without its flaws, but I enjoyed it. If only for the, in my opinion, still best looking and by far most menancing live action Hulk.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#91103: Nov 23rd 2018 at 6:04:50 AM

Swanpride: Maybe is just me but it feel the oposite: I feel Iron man 2 got what I call the "sheldon cooper" efect were the writer double down on a chararter. I feel tony is more flawed in Iron man 2 and the efect owith is father never get resolved very well, specially after what we know in civil war.

Compare to that I feel Iron man 3 is the best tony so far: flawed but try to improved a lot, it does help tony is pretty much answer cap question in the first avenger(what is tony without the suit?).

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#91104: Nov 23rd 2018 at 6:07:35 AM

As for the Iron Man debate, one of the reasons why IM 3 falls short compared to IM 2 for me is Aldrich Killian.

I mean say what you want about Hammer and Vanko, they were at least entertaining. Killian is just straight up boring. No charisma, no humour, no menancing vibe, nothing.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#91105: Nov 23rd 2018 at 6:15:09 AM

Also Sir Ben Kingsley was more intimidating and cool to watch when he was pretending to be the baddie than when Killian was actually the baddie.

Heck even Maya Hansen in concept was more interesting than Killian was.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#91106: Nov 23rd 2018 at 6:36:59 AM

Yeah, I admit, part of my feeling towards Ironman 3 is because I am kind of bitter that Maya wasn't allowed to be the villain.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#91107: Nov 23rd 2018 at 6:43:01 AM

I also have trouble with the whole premise of Ironman 3 that Tony "created monsters" on this new year night. That kind of could have worked if he had actually done something wrong, but as much as I dislike Tony most of the time, it is pretty clear that Maya knew perfectly well what kind of man he is and was just as much as him out for a little bit of fun, while Killian, well, let's just say that I have little understanding for people who accost other people who clearly don't want to be disturbed in an elevator. Tony sending him to the roof was a little bit mean, but he was about to follow him right to the hotel room. So...yeah, I am kind of on Tony's side there. For once (I usually aren't).

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#91108: Nov 23rd 2018 at 7:21:05 AM

I remember watching a playthrough of LEGO Marvel's Avengers and there was a bit during the Iron Man 3 level where Killian just goes "Perhaps this will teach you to be nicer to people you randomly meet at parties!" I love that line because of how much it shows how underwhelming Killian's backstory and motivations are.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#91109: Nov 23rd 2018 at 7:29:26 AM

Maya frustrates me because the movie actually gives her a somewhat ok reasoning for maybe going bad, AT FIRST!! She talks about wanting to use Extremis to heal wounds and cure disease, etc, but she needs it to work properly first. So her resorting to more and more extreme means to try and do this, and justifying it as "the ends justify the means" could have worked as character motivation. And it's still would have been better than what Killian got.

But then the film drops it and makes it more about her being angry at Tony "abandoning her" or whatever. Which is not only incredibly cliché and stereotypical for a female villain, but it makes no sense since, 1. She clearly knew what kind of person Tony was back then and was seemingly fine with it, 2. They were both very VERY drunk that night, which made it even more obvious what would happen, and 3. That was like 15 years before, am I really supposed to buy that she'd still be THAT hung up on it even now, nope.

Extremis seemed to be HER idea at the beginning, but then the film just gives it over to Killian after awhile.

And as for Killian, he was this clearly "not all there" guy who showed up out of nowhere to get in a clearly intoxicated Tony's face, who's never met you before also, and he had a clearly intoxicated pretty woman on his arm as well, in a elevator to talk about his "big idea" but seemingly has done NO leg work to set it up before coming to Tony. So yes, Tony pranking him like that was mean, but it makes Killian look INCREDIBLY petty to go that evil because of it so many years later. And that doesn't make him a particularly interesting villain.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#91110: Nov 23rd 2018 at 8:00:34 AM

I still maintain that the reason that the last part of IM 3 is such a mess villain wise isnt because Mandarin turns out to be fake - the twist is amazing, and everything leading up to to is both suspenseful and works even better on rewatch - but that Killian takes his place.

Killian spends most of the movie set up as a Dragon (rather than getting mastermind vibes like Maya): bland but obstructive, etc, with his only distinctive character trait being that he lusts after the hero’s girlfriend (itself a huge cliche). When he becomes Big Bad, he runs into the reason the last part of the movie is such a mess even without the villain problems: the writing drops the atmosphere of the first half to turn into one big fistfight, and doesn’t bother really giving anything any more background or depth. So he gets a throwaway and poor Freudian Excuse, kidnaps the hero’s girlfriend like King Kong, and just turns into Snidely Whiplash and shifts goals to more standard evil stuff that doesn’t white gel with his previous MO but ensures the obligatory Army vs Army dust up, but he himself doesn’t get any less bland.

I’ve alwaya believed that the exact moment the movie starts going downhill isn’t the twist, but when Killian breathes fire. That’s the point where everything just drops into action set pieces instead of story for half an hour, even though the movie’s story still feels unfinished at that point.

That they outright dropped Maya (who does have personality and decent motivations) as Big Bad for him in development just makes it worse.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 23rd 2018 at 8:05:20 AM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#91111: Nov 23rd 2018 at 8:11:20 AM

In my opinion one thing a villian should do is to challange the hero in some way and the harder the better, which is why I love Winter Soldier because Hydra REAAAAAALLY push Cap to is very limits(in fact it wasnt for Nick fury twist he will probably be dead), I feel the same with Tony who is out is element and the mandarin try to kill him over and over and over, the moment they blew up the mansion was the best for me.

Which is why I feel Iron man 2 is a huge letdown(and the same with Hela in ragnarok), Justin hammer is a funny sidekick as villian and Vanko is just kinda....well.....there.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#91112: Nov 23rd 2018 at 8:32:32 AM

Well, usually Tony mostly fights with himself. He is kind of my favourite Iron Man villain.

Nah, the Mandarin-Twist is in itself great. It's the execution which sucks. That would have been another reason why Maya would have been a better villain, because she could have called Tony out for jumping on the obvious threat with his weapons as if that solves anything truly complex in the long run. It would have been a great motivation if her goal had actually be "good" in a really screwed up way, if she hadn't been that outright evil but actually had good intentions originally.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#91113: Nov 23rd 2018 at 8:39:25 AM

And then you learn that she was supposed to be the main villain, and also Ellen Brandt was supposed to have a bigger role as well, but then someone higher up at Marvel coughIkePearlmuttercough forbade them from making the villain female because, toy sales or something.

Yeah because them Killian toys were flying off the shelves (obvious sarcasm).

Maya being the mastermind behind everything would have been both more interesting and more surprising, AND it'd fit in with the Extremis arc in the comics that the film was loosely based on (Maya ends up being revealed as the mastermind there to).

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#91114: Nov 23rd 2018 at 8:49:30 AM

Well, let's hope that Feige will agree to extend his contract next year. And that he manages to wrestle Marvel TV and Loeb away from Perlmutter's control, too.

Speaking of Marvel TV, I have thought about doing an article about the Netflix shows (what worked, what didn't work aso), but it feels a little bit early. There will be at least another season of The Punisher after all, and maybe (maybe not) another season of Jessica Jones.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#91115: Nov 23rd 2018 at 8:50:40 AM

[up][up]Sure, but problem is tony dosent seen to change that much: he get to be a dick and get away with it in and do it again in Ultron only to almost got it again in Civil war, to see tony getting better in Iron man 3 to the near wreck in civil war is.....kinda heartbreaking.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#91116: Nov 23rd 2018 at 9:07:35 AM

I actually would say that it is the other way around...Tony's character was kind of running in circles until it got "Russoed". In two movies they managed to pull together everything which was established beforehand without any clear direction into one big compelling narrative.

Case to point:

This video makes some great points about how Tony developed as a character. Honestly, he might have had the best arc of all of them Avengers so far. But as this video argues:

This is largely do to the Russo Brothers (and Marcus and Mc Feely) managing to pull all the parts established in the Ironman movies together while also turning around the "Whendonisms" in his character back to something more relatable. And they did the same for Thor, too, btw.

DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#91117: Nov 23rd 2018 at 12:00:00 PM

Here's what I got for movie rankings. Seems... surprisingly accurate, though I'm surprised Civil War ended up being so low. Infinity War also should be higher but that's likely because, though I like Infinity War, it's not something I want to rewatch until the second part comes out.

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#91118: Nov 23rd 2018 at 12:11:20 PM

I too indeed consider Vanko a more worthy & credible threat than Killian.

Killian is just a worthless motherfucker. So unlikablely bland & generic.

At least Vanko is Russian, Killian on the other hand is a plain white guy.

Edited by slimcoder on Nov 23rd 2018 at 12:15:14 PM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#91120: Nov 23rd 2018 at 12:42:39 PM

Honestly, Vanko might be my least favourite villain…*checks the ratings*...yeah, Vanko got only a 1.6 from me, and one of the 2 pointer he got was literally for his "burd" being at least somewhat memorable. Killian at least scores a 3 with his plan, his Thread level and the efficient way they established his character, and eventually ended up with 2.1

It's more Hammer who makes up for Vanko.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#91121: Nov 23rd 2018 at 12:46:56 PM

Killian has none of the believable intelligence/motivation of Stane, the intimidating presence or potentially interesting motives of Vanko, nor even the goofy bumbling fun of Hammer.

He's all of them put together, but inferior to them all at the same time.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#91123: Nov 23rd 2018 at 3:29:08 PM

Never did like that helmet much. She looks way better without it.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#91124: Nov 23rd 2018 at 3:31:26 PM

Me neither, but it looks as good as it could while being comics-accurate. Although I wish her mohawk was more extreme. Go big or go home.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#91125: Nov 23rd 2018 at 3:35:31 PM

Ya know I can’t help but feel nostalgic for the leotard outfit every once & a while.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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