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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#91051: Nov 22nd 2018 at 3:48:31 AM

[up]Yeah, well, this one is so bad, I'll ignore it when I go back to working on my own timeline.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#91052: Nov 22nd 2018 at 7:38:34 AM

Timelines are all fun until time travel comes along and suddenly it makes no sense

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
HallowHawk Since: Feb, 2013
#91053: Nov 22nd 2018 at 8:18:51 AM

[up] As I mentioned in the last page, I see timelines as a way of going through a franchise in chronological order.

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#91054: Nov 22nd 2018 at 8:44:55 AM

Most of these are just minor hiccups at best. I don't really mind if the official sources fudge up little details like that. As long as the continuity between films is solid and there's no major plot holes caused by it, I can accept the timeline not being 100% perfect.

Remember, the continuity could always be worse.

AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#91055: Nov 22nd 2018 at 2:28:26 PM

I'm at my aunt and uncle's place for Thanksgiving and they happened to have Iron Man 2 on DVD so they let me watch it. So I did out of curiosity/completionism. It's okay. Had its cool moments but I won't be racing to watch it again. At least that's another MCU movie under my belt.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#91056: Nov 22nd 2018 at 3:06:11 PM

One thing I found interesting about Iron Man 2 is that Ivan Vanko could be considered a prototype for Killmonger in Black Panther (2018). The two of them have very similar backstories, but whereas Killmonger is considered one of the MCU's best villains, Vanko's often considered one of the weakest.

In terms of similarities:

  • Their fathers both had close relationships with the father of the main hero.
  • Both were born into poverty, while the hero inherited the riches and fortunes of their family's legacy.
  • Their fathers were both betrayed by the father of the hero, although Vanko's father was deported whereas Erik's was murdered.
  • Both wish to take revenge against the hero out of a sense of entitlement and tarnish the legacy their family built.
  • Both end up betraying the Big Bad Wannabe, and prove to be much more of a cunning threat than they initially anticipated.
  • Both ultimately choose to kill themselves rather than be imprisoned.

There's plenty of differences though, the most obvious being that Killmonger is played more sympathetically and given more time to develop than Vanko was. Also, where Tony learned that his estranged father truly did love him, T'challa learned his beloved father did terrible things to maintain Wakanda's isolationist policies.

I just find it fascinating how two stories can approach villains with so many similarities in widely different ways. Or maybe I'm overthinking things. That's possible too.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Nov 22nd 2018 at 6:06:58 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#91057: Nov 22nd 2018 at 3:12:46 PM

Yeah, Vanko is a case where he could've been an interesting villain, but he falls apart in the second act by:

1. Nick Fury coming in to exposit "actually Vanko's father was evil and Howard was good", which is a pointless derail because we already know Vanko is wrong for attacking Howard's son even if Howard was evil.

2. Vanko suddenly becomes determined to personally kill Tony, which doesn't fit with his earlier goal of merely showing the world that Iron Man isn't invincible and can be reverse-engineered. It's simply a dumb device for getting all the Hammer Drones destroyed so that Tony can end the film still being an exclusive vigilante.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#91058: Nov 22nd 2018 at 3:27:31 PM

Honestly, the main problem is that everything connected to Vanko is just unbelievable convoluted, from his motivation (I am still not sure if his father had a honest grievance or not) to his plan. To quote from my article about him:

"When it comes to confusing plans, Vanko takes the cake. Let’s take this from the top: He attacks Tony at the racing track. I am not sure how he was able to predict that Tony would drive in the race, but okay, I roll with it, he might have simply waited for an opportunity to catch him, and that was the first one he got. After a fight in which he is keeps wielding his whips when he could have simply shoot Tony with arc reactor energy, he gets arrested. But then he claims that he still won because the world saw Ironman bleed. Wait, does this mean that he wanted Tony to survive, or did he want to kill him? And why going through all this effort when he already knows that Tony is dying? Granted, taking revenge in person is more satisfying, but what is the point of all this when he just ends up in prison? He can’t know that Justin Hammer will free him after all. And then we end up with the apparently on the fly created plan to attack Stark Expo. That makes a little bit more sense, because this way he attacks Tony’s legacy and not just his body – which actually might have been the idea from the get go. But Hammer is the one suggesting it to him, so perhaps not? All in all his plan is a nonsensical convoluted mess."

At the end of the day it feels like the story Ironman 2 actually wanted to tell is Tony struggling with his impending end, and they just showed Vanko in so that they could have an excuse for action scenes.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#91059: Nov 22nd 2018 at 3:36:19 PM

Some of it I think is explainable:

After a fight in which he is keeps wielding his whips when he could have simply shoot Tony with arc reactor energy, he gets arrested.

I'm pretty sure Vanko's first armor does not have repulsors, so he can't blast Tony with arc reactor energy. Given the Hammer Drones/Iron Monger/Crimson Dynamo fly on conventional rocket boosters and so are larger to carry more fuel, the implication seems to be that repulsors are a Tony-exclusive invention. Although this should mean Tony could stomp Vanko easily by just flying out of range of his whips.

But then he claims that he still won because the world saw Ironman bleed. Wait, does this mean that he wanted Tony to survive, or did he want to kill him? And why going through all this effort when he already knows that Tony is dying?

Vanko's Plan A was: 1. attack Tony with own arc reactor-powered suit. 2. world sees "God bleed" and that the arc reactor can be copied, and so doubles efforts to take down Iron Man, even if Vanko doesn't succeed in killing him personally.

The rest does indeed not make sense, though. tongue

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Nov 22nd 2018 at 3:43:31 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#91060: Nov 22nd 2018 at 3:42:40 PM

Yeah. Vanko's basic plan was fuck Tony Stark up in any way possible. If he killed him, cool. If he just made him look bad by undermining his claim of being the only person who could make the Arc Reactor (which he ultimately did do), probably not as good, but still nice. He was quite likely hoping to kill him and burn everything he'd created though. He was initially happy because he accomplished plan b (make him look bad) but then Hammer gave him a chance for more and he suddenly realized plan a (kill him) was still on the table.

Now in the end, he went with plan c (do both), with surviving things being optional I'm guessing. I've always said he was too hung up on revenge to realize that making Arc Reactor tech for Hammer and cutting into Tony's exclusivity was probably just as good especially since he'd given Stark a proverbial bloody nose on national television, but lets be honest: Tony does that to people.

One Strip! One Strip!
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#91061: Nov 22nd 2018 at 3:52:48 PM

It's unfortunate because Vanko has at least a few scenes where you really see the potential for a reasonably compelling villain. However, the film is unwilling to commit to him because it's too focused on Tony being an asshat; Vanko feels like a distraction, a mandatory obstacle that the narrative isn't that interested in at the end of the day.

AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#91062: Nov 22nd 2018 at 4:07:32 PM

I think I'd rather come back to 2 than 3. A part of that may be because Aldrich Killian was such a lame villain, even more than Vanko.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#91063: Nov 22nd 2018 at 4:18:38 PM

Also the film seemingly tries to absolve Howard with Fury's "oh Anton Vanko wanted to make money off the tech." But not only does that make things FAR less interesting, but I'm not sure exactly how that automatically makes Vanko's father the "bad one." Umm, didn't Howard do essentially the same thing to make his fortune? So why is it ok when he does it, but not when Vanko's father wants to? The movie seems to have trouble making up it's mind on that point.

I honestly feel like the movie made a big mistake when it shove Vanko to the side for most of the second half in favor of Hammer. They should have used that time to further develop the whole "sins of the father" idea and Vanko's character instead imo.

Edited by Punisher286 on Nov 22nd 2018 at 4:23:20 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#91064: Nov 22nd 2018 at 4:19:00 PM

I think I would too. Ironman 3 annoys me, because I see what they are going for and it just doesn't work. While Ironman 2 is a hot mess, at least it manages to carry the themes of legacy and Tony's self-destructive tendencies when it isn't distracted with Vanko.

With Ironman 3, there are a few scenes I like (the sky jumping scene for example) but also a lot of stuff I just don't want in the franchise, at all. With Ironman 2 it is more that I actually like every single scene in the movie in itself (other than the unnecessary "let's redress in the backseat of the car" moment), but they don't really fit together all that well.

Plus, while Vanko doesn't work, at least Hammer is entertaining. I can't say the same about Killian.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#91065: Nov 22nd 2018 at 4:25:53 PM

Ironman 3 also has the problem of it's "fake" villain coming across as far more menacing and interesting than it's actual villain imo.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#91066: Nov 22nd 2018 at 4:35:55 PM

Ben Kingsley's performance pre-stupid reveal was just awesome and downright chilling.

Edited by Forenperser on Nov 23rd 2018 at 12:20:35 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#91067: Nov 22nd 2018 at 4:54:21 PM

I think Howard tossed Vanko's dad out because he wasn't just trying to make money off it, but do so with America's enemies. He did try and sell the secrets to Russia didn't he?

Howard might have objected to that, especially if we take the events of Agent Carter into account.

Howard had his own bad experiences, not only with his tech being misused, but also with Russians.

One Strip! One Strip!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#91068: Nov 22nd 2018 at 6:51:38 PM

We interrupt this Vanko discussion to bring you

Why the Netflix MCU verse is slowly dying: An analysis by Movie Bob. Notable, he brings up Ike Perlmutter's antics and stifling creative control, the overall lack of creatively involving the 4 main Netflix shows, and the creation of Disney exclusive live action shows with movie level talent for their streaming service.

AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#91069: Nov 22nd 2018 at 8:38:19 PM

Yeah all things considered, IM 2 is not a terrible movie but I'm happy I didn't have to pay to watch it or IM 3. Now, I just need to catch the first two Thors, Winter Soldier and...*sigh*... The Incredible Hulk.

Also, I happened upon this neat little thing that attempts to determine your MCU movie rankings. Don't expect it to be completely spot on but it's there if you want (here's what I got, I admit I gave priority to the movies I haven't seen and still need to, because otherwise I would definitely take a few spots away from the Thors)

Edited by AyyItsMidnight on Nov 22nd 2018 at 8:38:45 AM

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#91070: Nov 22nd 2018 at 8:56:36 PM

Mine.

I should note that I haven't seen Hulk or the first Iron Man.

The Top 5, though, at least, I think are pretty accurate. I'll say that Avengers ties with Homecoming.

Oh God! Natural light!
Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#91071: Nov 22nd 2018 at 9:04:43 PM

Mine (in no real order):

-Avengers: Infinity War.

-Captain America: The Winter Soldier.

-Black Panther.

-Guardians of the Galaxy.

-Iron Man.

Edited by Punisher286 on Nov 22nd 2018 at 9:06:01 AM

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#91072: Nov 22nd 2018 at 9:06:00 PM

Here's what mine ended up as.

Pretty much 100% accurate though I think Ragnarok and Civil War are more or less tied and Doctor Strange ended up a bit higher than I would have put it at.

Edited by LordVatek on Nov 22nd 2018 at 12:06:58 PM

This song needs more love.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#91073: Nov 22nd 2018 at 9:06:48 PM

I probably wouldn't have put Homecoming in the Top 5 before, but I liked it a lot better on a rewatch, so I think it's fine where it is.

Oh God! Natural light!
ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#91074: Nov 22nd 2018 at 9:09:59 PM

Mine. [1]. I am a lot softer on Thor than most, and I have made peace with Iron Man's lesser outings.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#91075: Nov 22nd 2018 at 9:11:57 PM

Mine.

https://sorta.app/q/1012/sqijmaropfetlngkdbhc

I have seen every movie.... I think....... I’m a bit iffy on if I’ve fully watched Hulk but I have seen everything else.

Edited by slimcoder on Nov 22nd 2018 at 9:13:00 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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