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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#90726: Nov 2nd 2018 at 6:58:38 AM

"Science" here is just shorthand. It's not entirely accurate, but it's somewhat more indicative of what's being discussed than "magic" vs. "not-magic".

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#90727: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:00:19 AM

Exactly. The whole idea behind the "Magic is Science" concept is that if someone from the middleages would get his hand on a digital clock, he would think that it is magic. He would have no idea whatsoever about the mechanisms behind it. But for us, a battery, an electric light aso, that's all something which has been proven to work, so we don't worry about it. Even though I wouldn't even be able to explain how either exactly works, other that there is a "stream of energy" - which is a phrase which could also describe magic.

Sure, Thor and Loki are gods, but they are mostly gods in the sense that their bodies are stronger and they are equipped with special abilities. And at least in the MCU, humans can gain the same abilities if they mutate correctly.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#90728: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:01:51 AM

That's still not what the actual argument is about. It's about tone and style, how they're used, not what the explanation for them is.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#90729: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:03:40 AM

[up] ???? I don't quite follow...the style is still the same. It is just named differently.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#90730: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:08:53 AM

Personally, I've always found that in fiction, the primary difference between science and magic is how its inner workings are addressed. When a scientist has to attack someone with a blast he explains that he did so by channeling atomic energy into a concentrated ion blast. When a wizard has to attack someone with a blast he explains he has channeled his own burning hatred into a concentrated, physical blast. You see this as well in things like virgin sacrifices where technically speaking "virgin" isn't a quantifiable, mathematical factor but a symbolic one. Magic is all about symbols and narrative logic while science is all about numbers.

There's also often a change in principle that newer science is probably superior (i.e more advanced) while magic works on the opposite axis and, quite often, the older the magic the more powerful it actually is.

Edited by Gaon on Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:16:57 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#90731: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:09:33 AM

[up][up]I believe that they are referring to the aesthetics of each — that science is often shown as shiny and sleek (see: Iron Man's armor), while magic is often portrayed as "old world," using ancient stones and wood (see: ...uh, Harry Potter).

I'd also argue that these aesthetic differences are superficial at best and also discarded a lot of the times in various works.

Edited by alliterator on Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:09:54 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#90732: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:10:29 AM

This whole thing started when, right out of the gate, Thor said the line "Your ancestors called it magic. You call it science. Same fucking thing."

Then again, Thor is neither a magician nor a scientist so what he says could be taken with a grain of salt.

Or when the DARK ELVES had SPACE SHIPS and LASER GUNS.

Weren't those powered by some kind of magic?

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#90733: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:12:04 AM

[up][up][up]That puts it pretty well. [up]x4 What's so complicated about it? As you've already said, it's mostly an aesthetic difference, but you can see the difference in styles between fantasy and sci-fi, right?

[up][up] It's a continuum. You can get sci-fi that looks like medieval fantasy and fantasy that plays more like cyberpunk. It is largely a surface difference, but if people like a certain style, I don't see why you feel the need to dismiss their opinion out of hand.

Edited by Unsung on Nov 2nd 2018 at 8:32:54 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#90734: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:16:37 AM

Magic is all about symbols and narrative logic while science is all about numbers.

And spinning. Don't forget spinning.

Although magic sometimes is about spinning too.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 2nd 2018 at 8:16:43 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#90735: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:21:10 AM

Science is about circuit boards! Magic is about bones! And sometimes, you have to hook up those bones to a circuit board in order to get a magic detector!

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#90736: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:23:26 AM

Hey, if the MCU wanted to get a little Legends of Tomorrow in their Avengers 4, I wouldn't say no.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#90737: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:24:04 AM

Thanos is defeated by Beebo! YES!

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#90738: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:26:14 AM

You've got it all wrong,only squirrel girl can defeat Thanos

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#90739: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:29:36 AM

Beebo and Squirrel Girl team up! "We're here to kick butts and get cuddles. And you're all out of cuddles."

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#90740: Nov 2nd 2018 at 8:48:07 AM

Speed Ball Run is all about da spinning. tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#90741: Nov 2nd 2018 at 2:33:21 PM

The best way to defeat Thanos is to pit him against MCU Matt Murdock in a hallway.

Matt’s never lost a hallway fight yet. Prune Face goes down hard.cool

One Strip! One Strip!
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#90742: Nov 2nd 2018 at 2:34:26 PM

Even though I'm 100% sure that's not gonna happen, I would very much like for Thanos to survive.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#90743: Nov 2nd 2018 at 2:34:33 PM

They should just do this, but for real:

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#90744: Nov 2nd 2018 at 4:35:06 PM

I want Thanos to rob a gas station.

Just straight-up walk into a gas station with a gun and take all the money. Be like, "Go ahead, call the police and tell them Thanos just robbed you." Then fly away in his Thanoscopter.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 2nd 2018 at 5:35:21 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#90745: Nov 2nd 2018 at 5:23:54 PM

Not smart. He'd get arrested by the police if he did that, one of his few weaknesses.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#90746: Nov 2nd 2018 at 11:50:50 PM

"Oops, I dropped the Infinity Gauntlet!"

And the film ends.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#90747: Nov 3rd 2018 at 10:01:49 PM

So I'm watching Black Panther again, and it's just been pointed out to me that Klaue's Arm Cannon (which is just supposed to be a mining tool remember) makes the exact same sound as Stark's Repulsor blasts.

Just an interesting detail.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Nov 3rd 2018 at 11:03:15 AM

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#90748: Nov 3rd 2018 at 10:20:35 PM

It's a bit late for the magic convo, but I've always found the narrative difference between magic and technology (not, as pointed out, "science") is that magic can do things that are more... specific.

Like, tech can beliveably give someone super strength that is effectively that of ten men, whereas magic can give someone strength that is literally that of ten men. Amounts to the same thing in most, but the magical approach can have specific moving parts that can be used in creative ways (like, say, if the average man in the world becomes stronger, then that person also does without any additional effort.note ).

Which then means you can get differences like someone effectively becoming immortal via tech with healing factors or invulnerability and such, or literally being unkillable by any man (and thus killable by a woman) via magic. Or all the times curses can only be lifted by extremely obscure means ("a virgin must light this candle on this specific night on this specific year after my death!"), whereas even the wonkiest of non-magical afflictions need cures that make sense. Which is also one of the reasons reality warping is often compared to magic even in sci-fi situations: because it can do the same thing.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 3rd 2018 at 10:26:43 AM

32ndfreeze Since: Mar, 2012
#90749: Nov 3rd 2018 at 10:39:37 PM

Magic also tends to be generally more internal than external.

Like, you get situations like in Iron Man 3 where Tony loses access to his technology.

But with magic its less likely to evolve around an item.

Expect I suppose the MCU does do that pretty often. I.e Thor's Hammer.

Scarlet Witch would be the best example for what I was thinking of. Even if she not strictly speaking magic.

Drakon69 The dragon archnerd from greece Since: Oct, 2018 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
The dragon archnerd
#90750: Nov 4th 2018 at 1:16:38 AM

So guys what is your WMG about the black widow movie

My personal WMG is that the its gonna be a one big flashback its gonna start back in nat`s days in the KGB. The first act is gonna be all in russian nat is gonna have comic acurate hair then then after her defection she is will speak in a russian accent (witch all her animated incarnations had) witch she will lose towards the end

Edited by Drakon69 on Nov 4th 2018 at 10:39:46 AM

DRAGON DRAGON

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