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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#90701: Nov 2nd 2018 at 12:18:37 AM

Well, it was brought up rhetorically — it's the same with saying that magic and science couldn't possibly result in different scenes, or that those differences, if they do exist, don't matter.

Edited by Unsung on Nov 2nd 2018 at 1:36:20 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#90702: Nov 2nd 2018 at 12:20:44 AM

To me the only difference between magic and pseudo science in movies is that one looks like it comes from the past and the other looks like it comes from the future. But it is really just an aesthetical difference.

I care more about it being presented in a way that it doesn't feel like there are no rules whatsoever.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#90703: Nov 2nd 2018 at 12:32:25 AM

Speaking of which, part of the reason why I was so disappointed by Dr. Strange was because the fight choreography felt so samey to everything else, because all of these MAGICAL people were doing kung fu and making light constructs and everyone fights the exact same goddamn way.

Granted, they've changed that up a lot, but for a while it was basically "If you're not Thor or Tony, you do MMA."

My various fanfics.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#90704: Nov 2nd 2018 at 12:58:11 AM

Yeah, they really improved on Doctor Strange's magic fighting in Infinity War. Having a team just for that apparently helped (no joke, if you pay attention during the credit they had a team just for magic fights).

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#90705: Nov 2nd 2018 at 1:00:26 AM

I would also point out that in Wonder Woman, they treat the magic as magic, and the gods are actual gods and never referred to as anything but gods. There's no "well they're really just long living beings that people just kind of worshipped as gods," no they're freaking gods, no if's and's or but's about it.

Which makes me go "thank you movie, that's refreshing."

Edited by Punisher286 on Nov 2nd 2018 at 1:02:07 AM

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#90706: Nov 2nd 2018 at 1:12:13 AM

But at the same time, they also killed all of the Gods, so, ya know. Good with the bad.

My various fanfics.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#90708: Nov 2nd 2018 at 1:36:51 AM

I'm pretty sure the number of media that doesn't treat magic as magic is minuscule compared to those that do, so i don't get what's refreshing about it.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#90709: Nov 2nd 2018 at 2:01:23 AM

I mean, if gods can be killed, aren't they basically just long-lived people that humans worshipped as gods? Whether they consider themselves gods is irrelevant, what actually makes a god different from a mortal if both have limitations and both can be killed?

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#90710: Nov 2nd 2018 at 2:10:15 AM

Optics.

They were lowercase-g gods. They don't have to be omnipotent or unkillable, just powerful and worshipped. You're making this about precise definitions, but language is imprecise and contextual to begin with, and taking that aside, that's not the issue for the people who want a more fantastical MCU. They want the trappings, the look of the thing. That might not be important to you, and that's fine, but that's what some of us still want.

Edited by Unsung on Nov 2nd 2018 at 3:18:00 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#90711: Nov 2nd 2018 at 4:21:46 AM

[up][up]Mythology has had gods killed before.

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#90712: Nov 2nd 2018 at 4:49:57 AM

In Greek mythology, sufficiently badass mortals could fight and beat Gods in combat. Maybe not papa Zeus but guys like Ares could be fought and beaten.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#90713: Nov 2nd 2018 at 5:01:08 AM

But killed? I can't think of a story in which a god is actually killed outside of Zeus killing his own parents.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#90714: Nov 2nd 2018 at 5:10:56 AM

The Greek gods killed the titans, Cronus and so forth. The Norse gods and giants are often on roughly equal terms, and they kill each other all the time, not to mention the myth of Balder. The Egyptian god Osiris' whole thing is having already died and been mummified. Death and resurrection are complicated for the gods, much like they are for superheroes. It comes up often enough that there's a word for it.

Edited by Unsung on Nov 2nd 2018 at 6:18:08 AM

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#90715: Nov 2nd 2018 at 5:24:04 AM

Technically the Titans are sealed in Tartarus, and as with the cyclops that were sealed inside before them, they can be set free, but that's pretty much the same as death if it's define as being in the underworld and not being able to leave. They don't do dying from injuries, sickness or age and etc. Norse gods have to eat the apples of Iðunn to stay ageless, and can be killed.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#90716: Nov 2nd 2018 at 5:51:24 AM

I was thinking in terms of Greek mythology. Norse mythology is different. Though, for the record, most of the stories about gods dying are about the end of the world, meaning they are describing something which hasn't happened yet, and when it will happen, it will be the end of everything.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#90717: Nov 2nd 2018 at 6:04:36 AM

And then you've got that guy that said he was a son of a God but died on a cross

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#90718: Nov 2nd 2018 at 6:06:11 AM

Norse Mythos is full of dead gods. Balder dying (which technically preludes Ragnarok) is the most famous case. Most gods are (perhaps ironically) at least somewhat mortal, since Osiris also dies (though he comes back) in Egyptian mythos.

To my knowledge only the Greeks and Christian lores operate entirely on 100% immortal gods.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#90719: Nov 2nd 2018 at 6:14:10 AM

The Greek gods might not be able to die, but they can be wounded and dismembered. And the ways in which the Underworld and Mount Olympus are much more physical places than in most religions makes it at least somewhat ambiguous, since "cast into the underworld" could be interpreted in a few different ways, with the Titans existing in this weird space, mythically, where they seem more mortal in some ways than both their children and their parents. And then there's all the child-eating and subsequent disgorging of said children (like Athena cracking her way out of Zeus's skull), and Aphrodite coming out of nowhere riding a clamshell up out of the sea, and some myths where Pan is Hermes' son but others where he always existed in the woods, something separate and distinct from the other members of the pantheon. Greek mythology is weird.

Edited by Unsung on Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:18:45 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#90720: Nov 2nd 2018 at 6:17:04 AM

Anyway.

The whole "We Norse gods aren't actually gods, but really long-lived aliens" is straight from the comics, except the comics have all gods as alien beings (well, a cross between alien beings and gods). So, like, Thor is an alien and a god, but also not even the origin Thor, because Ragnarok is a cycle and there have been many cycles before.

Edited by alliterator on Nov 2nd 2018 at 6:17:56 AM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#90721: Nov 2nd 2018 at 6:32:43 AM

Not "Anyway." This is actually (at least somewhat) relevant, because while you do have that aliens-as-gods aspect to the Asgardians, you also have the Olympians and various other pantheons, and the degree of magic-as-advanced technology varies. The rules that the MCU has set up regarding the Asgardians don't have to apply to the portrayal of other gods and supposedly mythical beings, much less rules people have assumed apply to gods in general, which are hardly consistent across different cultures to begin with.

Edited by Unsung on Nov 2nd 2018 at 4:50:23 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#90722: Nov 2nd 2018 at 6:41:45 AM

Isn't there an unwritten rule to stay away from gods people actually still believe in?

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#90724: Nov 2nd 2018 at 6:44:44 AM

[up][up]What, the Olympians?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#90725: Nov 2nd 2018 at 6:51:41 AM

Especially if that dragon is apart of an eternal cycle of death & resurrection where its slain by humans through nothing more than their bare-hands & upon every death it empowers its slayer with its power, & will come back to life so to do the whole death & empower process all over again.

How do you even explain that through the scientific method?

Like this:

"Multiple recorded repetitions of the experiment have shown that the dragon is a part of an eternal cycle of death and resurrection, where it's slain by humans through nothing more than their bare-hands. Upon every death, it empowers its slayer with its power and will come back to life so to do the whole death & empower process all over again."

I think in the Magic v. Science debate, people have this fundamental misunderstanding that in order to be scientific, something must be grounded in the laws of physics as we know them today. That's not how science works. At all.

Punching that dragon in the heart to gain superpowers is a thing that has already been tested over and over again with the same results obtained every time. It would never have become a big part of K'un-Lun's culture if it was not a reliable procedure that can be performed over and over again to attain a specific outcome.

Like it or not, the Iron Fist is scientifically provable. It's just not consistent with real-world physics. But neither are half of Tony Stark's armors.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:54:08 AM

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