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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#90651: Nov 1st 2018 at 8:05:31 PM

Yeah, Danny says "I fought a Dragon to get magical kung fo powers." And everyone just laughs at him and make snide remarks. And Luke Cage gets up after one Magic Punch and Matt just kicks the shit out of Danny straight up, one-on-one, in a martial arts fight. So he's just a stupid loser making up stupid bullshit. Magic isn't real. Fuck off. It's just science, like the Asgardians said.

In fact, you even had a little bit of that in Infinity Wars. Dr. Strange is supposed to be this all-powerful wizard, but a lot of his feats are replicated by Ebony Maw, whose only power seems to be Telekinesis, and who absolutely trounces Steve-oh and styles all over him.

So, yeah, in the MCU, magic is fake bullshit for stupid nerds. Just punch someone in the face until they die or shoot them with science.

My various fanfics.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#90652: Nov 1st 2018 at 8:08:22 PM

So, yeah, in the MCU, magic is fake bullshit for stupid nerds. Just punch someone in the face until they die or shoot them with science.
I mean, they've stated again and again that magic is science in the MCU, just a different type of science. Also, they've brought magic up in Agents of SHIELD — they had Ghost Rider and the Darkhold as explicitly magic (although, again, they do explain it as "maybe it drags you into Hell or maybe it's just a hellish dimension, it doesn't really matter").

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#90653: Nov 1st 2018 at 8:40:49 PM

It is, and that can work, but people are still kind of hungry for the trappings of fantasy and the occult with their magic. It may be explainable, but it doesn't have to be explained onscreen. Sometimes people just want magic that can just be magic, rather than having to dress up in science's clothes. Sometimes a dragon is just a dragon.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#90654: Nov 1st 2018 at 8:45:59 PM

Anyone who wants magic without magic also being science is a fool. Any good magical setting has rules to its shit, and rules means science. Magic is not some nebulous anti-science force, because that's constraining science to a very narrow definition of what science is. If magic existed in real life, there would be a scientific method to describe and explain it. If something can't be explained using science, it DOESN'T EXIST.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Nov 1st 2018 at 8:46:22 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#90655: Nov 1st 2018 at 8:46:30 PM

Especially if that dragon is apart of an eternal cycle of death & resurrection where its slain by humans through nothing more than their bare-hands & upon every death it empowers its slayer with its power, & will come back to life so to do the whole death & empower process all over again.

How do you even explain that through the scientific method?

Just fuck off with science for once, let the fantastical be the fan-fucking-tastical.

Edited by slimcoder on Nov 1st 2018 at 8:48:02 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#90656: Nov 1st 2018 at 8:52:48 PM

[up][up]Alright man, chill out. Yes, there are rules and there's a science to it, but can you see how the opposite also applies? If magic and science are the same thing, there's no reason why magic has to look like sci-fi.

Edited by Unsung on Nov 1st 2018 at 9:53:46 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#90657: Nov 1st 2018 at 8:52:49 PM

Of course, there's a scientific way to explain dragons, there's a scientific way to explain everything. Even if that explanation is just "dragons are animals that exist", that's still science as biology. Chi is very clearly something that could be measured, it would create a whole new branch of science to do so (or resurrecting a branch from the Middle Ages), but it could still work.

Science is not just labs and electronics, science is literally just figuring out how things work and make sense in the universe. Clearly, these things work, so there has to logically be an explanation for how.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#90658: Nov 1st 2018 at 8:57:41 PM

But we don't have to know what that explanation is. It can look mystical and inexplicable and just plain weird, as opposed to the smooth, shiny hypertech of Asgard.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#90659: Nov 1st 2018 at 9:07:28 PM

Things in the MCU that are magical and have no explanation (yet):

  • Ghost Rider / The Spirit of Vengeance that can inhabit people.
  • The Darkhold and it's ability to corrupt anyone who reads it.
  • The Iron Fist's various abilities (punching, healing, imbuing objects with chi).
  • An as-yet-unseen dragon (well, okay, we've seen it's eyes, but that's it).
  • All of the illusions Loki does.
  • Hela, her ability to manifest any weapon, and her connection to Asgard.
  • Surtur, the prophecy about him destroying Asgard, and, you know, him coming back from the dead and growing giant size and destroying Asgard.
  • The Cloak of Levitation.
  • All those things Doctor Strange did in his fight against Thanos (creating copies of himself out of thin air, turning a black hole into butterflies, etc). None of them looked like the "magical lines" he started out with in his own movie, which was explained as extradimensional energy.

See? None of those have explanations, even if we know there are magical explanations for them.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#90660: Nov 1st 2018 at 9:16:22 PM

I miss the days where shit didn't have to be explained because it was magic.

One Strip! One Strip!
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#90661: Nov 1st 2018 at 9:24:28 PM

I mean, "I don't have to explain it, it's magic" is kind of the lamest explanation there is, though. I'd prefer if things followed Sanderson's First Law: "An author's ability to solve conflict with magic is DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL to how well the reader understands said magic."

So, for example: if magic is merely used as decoration for a story, there's no real need to understand it, it's just "magic." But if magic is used to solve a story, you (the audience) need to understand how it works. That's why they explain magic and how the Eye of Agamotto works in Doctor Strange, so that when it's used to solve the conflict, it works. But that's also why we don't get or need an explanation for Loki's illusions or Strange's refilling beer stein, etc.

Look at another example: Harry Potter. All of it's magic spells are explained extensively, so that when one is used to solve a problem, we understand why and accept it. But that doesn't make it any less magic.

Edited by alliterator on Nov 1st 2018 at 9:26:06 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#90662: Nov 1st 2018 at 9:30:02 PM

[up] This.

Magic arguably needs explanations even more than mad science does, because the more you build up magical worlds and concepts, the more those things need rules to keep everything straight. Magic can do all sorts of weird stuff, but it still needs to make sense.

Comcis, granted, don't always give a crap about that, but Dr. Strange's comics are iirc a good example of supernatural shenanigans that a pretty well defined. At least, usually.

I feel like they took the opposite route with Loki in the movies, though. Instead of making him a full fledged wizard and taking the effort to develop his magic and how it works, he basically just knows the one spell and is very good at using it.

To the point where Dr. Strange, who despite his great power and potential is still technically in training, owns him in literally the time it takes for him to wave his hand.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 1st 2018 at 9:34:59 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#90663: Nov 1st 2018 at 9:31:38 PM

Magical explanations are still explanations. Seriously, science is literally derived from the Latin word for "knowledge". Science is not just "shiny sci-fi metal and quantum bullshit" it's just "anything with an explanation and rules". I don't like this aversion to "science" in settings with magic because magic is always science. Everything is science.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Nov 1st 2018 at 9:33:38 AM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#90664: Nov 1st 2018 at 9:35:41 PM

Half of that is Asgardian hypertech, and Doctor Strange and AOS went out of their way to Do In The Wizard. I liked how the Russos used Strange in Infinity War, I liked seeing actual dragon bones under New York, I like how Carpet from Aladdin is getting work again, that's all great. But I want more. I want an actual living, breathing (possibly fire) dragon onscreen.

It's about how it's handled, what it looks like, how characters treat it. You may personally prefer all magic to be explained and categorized, and that's fine. Your needs are being served. But I think there's room for more of the mystical and strange in the MCU. They're still shying away from it.

[up]That's not what the argument is about. I just finished saying that science isn't all just shiny swoopy metal things, but if science and magic are in fact the same thing, then some guy with a moldering grimoire and a bunch of grubby candles can still fit into that world. Just because it doesn't resemble science as we know it doesn't mean it isn't tapping into the same forces in some way we don't yet understand.

Edited by Unsung on Nov 1st 2018 at 10:54:22 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#90665: Nov 1st 2018 at 9:36:50 PM

There is a fine-line of having something explained well-enough but still having a sense of mystique to it.

Cause if you give it too much logical explanations it can come across as well not weird enough.

Like Strange's bizarre magic shit should be very different from Stark's engineering. Some shit just can't be completely explained, that's where the fun is.

Plus honestly sciencers are so fucking annoying when it comes to magic. Like how Wally acted in the Dr. Fate episode of Young Justice. I don't want them proven right.

Edited by slimcoder on Nov 1st 2018 at 9:37:48 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#90666: Nov 1st 2018 at 9:38:42 PM

Things are getting a little heated here, I think - let's all try to calm down a bit.

PMC, I appreciate your position, but calling people "fools" isn't very helpful.

Oh God! Natural light!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#90667: Nov 1st 2018 at 9:41:10 PM

I love mystical and strange. Just because something seems unexplainable doesn't mean that it has no explanation, it just means we don't know what that explanation is. There's stuff in the real world that we know exists but we have no explanation for, like dark matter and dark energy. Those might as well be magic, but we still try to figure out what the explanation for them is because we know they have one.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#90668: Nov 1st 2018 at 9:42:29 PM

[up][up] The mystique or lack of it comes from how much of the inner workings you let the audience in on, not the existence of those inner works themslves. The audience doesn't need to know how the systems of mana and incantation and all that jazz function to enjoy the magic, but those systems do need to exist for the story to flow the best it can.

Often, the main problem behind Doing In the Wizard isn't explanation, it's overexplanation. Trusting the audience to follow the story without being let in on every last secret and such.

Or on the other hand, do like in the case of something like Harry Potter and slowly reveal more and more of the rules until by the end the audience is used to magic being commonplace and practical, and doesn't mind it.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 1st 2018 at 9:43:53 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#90669: Nov 1st 2018 at 9:44:39 PM

But I want more. I want an actual living, breathing (possibly fire) dragon onscreen.
Well, then, you're in luck, because we got to see an actual fire-breathing dragon in Thor: Ragnarok.

If you want to see Shou-Lao the Undying, however, tell Marvel to give Iron Fist another season please and a bigger budget.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#90671: Nov 1st 2018 at 9:48:57 PM

This was never about an attack on science, and I don't really appreciate automatically being characterized as if I'm somehow anti-science just because I like the aesthetics of fantasy and would like to see more of them appear in the MCU, the way they do in the comics. It's not a binary position— I can like Iron Man and Lord of the Rings.

Edited by Unsung on Nov 1st 2018 at 11:40:42 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#90672: Nov 1st 2018 at 9:50:46 PM

[up]I agree. Let me clarify: at no point in this argument did I mean to convey a dislike for wacky mystical stuff. I loved Dr. Strange's fight with Thanos, and I want more of that in Dr. Strange 2.

My gripe is specifically with the fan-mindset that magic and science are, and even should, be kept completely separate because it demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what science actually is. My point is that they can't be kept separate because magic, just by virtue of existing, logically has to fall under the umbrella of science.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#90673: Nov 1st 2018 at 9:54:00 PM

[up] Actually, there are some examples of magic in fiction where it explicitly defies science. The entire point of some magical systems is that, well, you can't explain it — so "knowledge" wouldn't make sense in terms of describing it.

Of course, these magic systems are few and far between and are often used only for surrealism or things like that.

Edited by alliterator on Nov 1st 2018 at 9:54:36 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#90674: Nov 1st 2018 at 9:55:03 PM

When I mean science in this context I mean extreme sci-fi tech & overtly explained babble.

Like that light novel series The Irregular at Magic High School which has long-winded scientific explanations on like every characters magic that borders on "Dude what the fuck?"

Or the Fate series which is somewhat similar.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#90675: Nov 1st 2018 at 9:55:09 PM

[up][up]We discover things that defy what we know as science in the real world all the time, see the aforementioned dark matter and dark energy. It just means our understanding of how the universe works is wrong.

[up]And that's what I have a problem with. Just say sci-fi and technobabble, don't use the catch-all term "science".

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Nov 1st 2018 at 9:56:06 AM


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