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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#90626: Nov 1st 2018 at 11:52:14 AM

Something something one side-effect of undoing the Snap in Avengers 4 is that the dormant mutant gene in the human race gets activated. I dunno.

Or they're just integrated with the Inhumans.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#90627: Nov 1st 2018 at 12:27:36 PM

I honestly just hope they don't cancel The Gifted. Or Legion.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#90628: Nov 1st 2018 at 12:38:13 PM

It wouldn’t really be dissonant if people just started getting born with powers. The beauty of the mutants concept is in how simple it is and in how little explanation it requires.

Nobody has confirmed that the X-men would join the MCU.

Bob Iger, head of Disney, had an interview about a month ago where he claimed that the current plan is to not have multiple series for the different Marvel properties and to consolidate them into one (well, his exact words were that they didn’t feel it made sense to have more than one, and didn’t plan to do it).

Granted, he was speaking for Marvel Studios rather than them speaking for themselves, but he would know.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 1st 2018 at 12:41:15 PM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#90629: Nov 1st 2018 at 3:04:24 PM

So there's something I need to be truly clear on:

Outside of the different production schedules between T.V. and Film, who exactly is responsible for the massive divide between the TV and Film sides of the MCU?

I mean, there's little doubt that what happens in Agents of Shield and Netflix is completely ignored by the movies, but where's did the idea that one side insists on it come from. And who exactly is that side?

I've gotten mixed reports of both Feige and someone at Netflix are responsible, but what is the truth here?

Help a Rob out.

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#90630: Nov 1st 2018 at 3:20:25 PM

bA lot of it is probably just studio politics. Studios generally don't have that kind of connection between movie and television departments (see also, Disney formal being very fickle about the attention it gives to the Disney animated television shows), and the idea of a universe that incorporates both is rather new. Marvel TV and Marvel Film are still run by completely different people, who probably don't want to be beholden to one another.

On the movie side, I think the first one to be vehement about it was Joss Whedon, who rather infamously said that he considers the shows non-canon to the movies he made. However, he's out now, not that he ever really had any say in it in the first place.

Feige, on the other hand, has been very clinical about his responses: at first his reasoning was that he thought it would be impossible to explain the television characters' presence in the films, then that he didn't want to interrupt the tv series' continuity by setting movie appearances in stone, and when Infinity War was coming out [[www.collider.com/marvel-netflix-mcu-crossover-kevin-feige/#defenders he said he was unwilling to even give the characters cameos]] because he wanted to give them explanation, which is something of a Catch-22. He's the big boss of the MCU, so he tends to get the bulk of the blame, but again it's probably the work of a lot of different people maneuvering around each other.

On the tv side, Clarg Gregg (who's been steadily graduating to a major player on AOS' production side) was more of an optimistic "the movies don't really need us right now, but they might one day." Jeph Loeb on the other hand was kind of blunt "business language" about how the shows are only connected in the sense that they're adapted from the same thing, which is... well... disheartening.

That said, both sides often make promises about crossovers that might happen, though they don't really follow through. So who knows?

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 1st 2018 at 3:40:33 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#90631: Nov 1st 2018 at 3:21:48 PM

Outside of the different production schedules between T.V. and Film, who exactly is responsible for the massive divide between the TV and Film sides of the MCU?
There isn't as much a divide as you might hear. Everything still goes through Kevin Feige, since he is the head of Marvel Studios. But while he is in total control of Marvel Studios, Marvel Television still has to get approval from the Isaac "Ike" Perlmutter, who is the chairman of Marvel Entertainment. Hence why people say there is a "division" between the two.

[deep breath]

Perlmutter used to control Marvel Studios, too, often micromanaging things to an insane degree (he was well known for being incredibly stingy and at one point, even managed the number of soda cans at a release party — the cast had to raid a nearby release party when they ran out). He was the one who set up the Creative Committee, which was also responsible for a lot of issues that MCU films had — Joss Whedon, especially, hated what the Creative Committee did to Age of Ultron and making that film, apparently, almost broke him. Things came to a head when RDJ wanted a large payday for Civil War and Perlmutter didn't want to give it to him, once even threatening to have the film made without RDJ at all (how it could be Civil War then, I don't know). Feige went to Bob Iger directly and Iger then split off Marvel Studios from Marvel Entertainment, meaning that Feige now had complete control.

However, Marvel Television was still under the purview of Marvel Entertainment and Perlmutter. And Perlmutter, apparently wanting his own X-Men like franchise, had previously insisted that Inhumans be made into a movie — but when that movie was dropped by Feige (who apparently only agreed to it in order to get Captain Marvel approved — take this was a large grain of salt), Perlmutter insisted that Marvel TV make an Inhumans series instead. As fast and as cheap as possible.

I don't think Perlmutter has any input on Agents of SHIELD or any of the Netflix shows (Netflix is in charge of half their budget, but I don't think the Netflix executives have any creative input), but this where the "division" between Marvel Studios and Marvel TV comes in.

Apparently, the Disney streaming stuff will be made by Marvel Studios and not Marvel TV — how that works, I don't know — so there won't be any division. But then again, Agents of SHIELD execs have said that they run everything by Marvel Studios anyway, so the division is more speculation than anything else.

On the movie side, I think the first one to be vehement about it was Joss Whedon, who rather infamously said that he considers the shows non-canon to the movies he made.
He never said that. He said that to the people in the films that Coulson was still dead. Not that the show was non-canon. Hell, he helped create Agents of SHIELD.

Edited by alliterator on Nov 1st 2018 at 3:23:47 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#90632: Nov 1st 2018 at 3:28:13 PM

His official word, on the narrative itself, not the perspective of the characters therein, was this:

“It’s a weird little yes and no. As far as I’m concerned in the films, yes he’s dead. In terms of the narrative of these guys [The Avengers] his loss was very important. When I created the television show, it was sort of on the understanding that this can work and we can do it with integrity, but these Avengers movies are for people to see the Avengers movies and nothing else. And it would neither make sense nor be useful to say ‘Oh and by the way remember me? I died!’”

It was really something of a punch in the gut to a lot of people at the time. There's a good collection of his comments about this sort of thing here. From what he says here, his take on the continuity seems to have been that the different mediums had their own continuities built for the different audiences they attract. Which is a very golden mean way to think about it, but it makes sense for Hollywood.

Though again, that's moot because Whedon never had any actual say in the big picture.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 1st 2018 at 3:42:56 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#90633: Nov 1st 2018 at 4:06:37 PM

I believe there was another interview where he walked back that statement, saying that he meant in terms of what they are allowed to acknowledge, Coulson won't appear as alive again in the movies. Since they have different audiences and all that.

Of course, Whedon also said: "Yeah he's dead. The entire television series is just a fever dream. It's a Jacob’s Ladder moment he's having at the point of death, but we don't give that away until after season seven. And there's a snow globe. Now I've given it away. Bollocks!"

Which is funny because they did exactly that for the 100th episode of Agents of SHIELD and tried to convince Coulson that he was still dying and the entire show was a dream.

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#90634: Nov 1st 2018 at 6:06:55 PM

Yeah by all accounts the only reason there's not been a major cross over from the shows to the films yet is that there hasn't been a reason for that to happen yet.

If a film maker wanted to they could ask for a character from Marvel TV to be reserved for a film apparence, and that means the character would sit out of television apparences for a couple years or so while film production is in progress, but it's doable.

It's simply that there hasn't been a project yet where a director/writer has wanted to introduce an established TV character. The russios have said that having the Defenders appear in their films would be fun if there was any space to actually introduce them.

Saying that, the actress for Mocking Bird has said before that she's made unofficial meets with the team behind Black Widow, so that would be interesting if that leads anywhere.

And of course the Disney Play mini series would be an easier opportunity to cross over the MARVEL TV properties, given the production timelines will more easily line up. I could easily see Sam and Bucky bump into Jessica Jones for example.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#90635: Nov 1st 2018 at 6:12:20 PM

I don't know why they don't just do what Star Wars does and say "these two series involving the same characters are not happening at the same time, so they don't directly affect each other's causality." Feige's belief that you can't put these characters in other media without excessive explanation has always been unnecessarily limiting.

Or, hell, do what the comics do and just have it that the characters are making appearances in other stories in between their own adventures. It's not like Dr. Strange required an awful lot of explanation to be in Ragnarok. He's a wizard. He protects Earth. Onto the plot.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 1st 2018 at 6:13:27 AM

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#90636: Nov 1st 2018 at 6:14:05 PM

Literally, how hard is it to have Chris Evans reading a prop newspaper with a story about the Devil of Hell's Kitchen or Harlem's Invincible Man on the cover?

Or if people in the Netflix shows could stop talking about The Avengers in the vaguest terms possible. "The Dude in the suit" IRON MAN. SAY IRON MAN. TONY STARK. LITERALLY THE MOST FAMOUS MAN TO EVER LIVE.

My various fanfics.
Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#90637: Nov 1st 2018 at 6:30:34 PM

My Watsonian explanation for that one specifically is that people do it because they know Stark would find it annoying.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#90638: Nov 1st 2018 at 6:37:43 PM

He'd probably just be confused at the roundabout nickname.

Edited by LordVatek on Nov 1st 2018 at 9:37:54 AM

This song needs more love.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#90639: Nov 1st 2018 at 6:52:44 PM

Headcanon: no one from NYC or Malibu or living in NYC or Malibu uses Tony Stark’s name, ever, because he has an uncanny habit of coincidentally popping up 5-55 minutes after you mention him, and the property damage from whatever he’s fighting or working on or arguing with Pepper or Rhodey about ain’t worth it.

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#90640: Nov 1st 2018 at 7:02:17 PM

Comics do have an advantage that they can have recaps, editor's notes, and, in the event the reader is really confused, they can put the comic down and Google the character.

I feel like Marvel films are moving away from exsesivly explaining everything. Civil War was happy to just have super heroes turn up and Ragnarok was happy for Strange to just be this wizard. It works well. It doesn't cause continuity lock out because it encourages the viewer to accept they don't need to know who these guys are.

Reintroducing Phillip Coulson back to the films is a tall order though, as breaking that news to Tony and Steve would be big news for them that would surely distract from what ever larger plot.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#90641: Nov 1st 2018 at 7:44:48 PM

Method Man mentions Iron Man in his song for Luke Cage, at least.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#90642: Nov 1st 2018 at 7:51:05 PM

Jessica Jones Season 2 mentions the Raft.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#90643: Nov 1st 2018 at 7:51:06 PM

Jessica Jones S1 was the only one that obsessively and exclusively referred to them as "the flag-waver" and "the green guy" or whatever. The other shows (including JJ S2) sometimes refer to them by name.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#90644: Nov 1st 2018 at 7:55:40 PM

I remember D-Bub in Luke Cage Season 1 selling what I call The Fuckin' Brouhaha (because The Incident is a terrible name) on Blu-Ray, reportedly having footage of "The Big Green Dude" and "The Cat with the Hammer."

First of all, how fucked up is that? It would be like selling footage of 9/11 on the street corner in 4K HD. I mean, granted, that's what things like Call of Duty and Modern Warfare are, but still.

My various fanfics.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#90645: Nov 1st 2018 at 7:59:05 PM

To be fair, the Hulk did punch a giant space monster on the face. If I had footage of that, I'd be selling it too.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#90646: Nov 1st 2018 at 8:01:06 PM

I want to know how he got the footage, that's another thing.

My various fanfics.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#90647: Nov 1st 2018 at 8:02:03 PM

Well, I mean... Flight 93. These are the heroes of the Incident, he's not talking about how he has footage of the giant dragon things or the guy with the antelope helmet.

But yeah, I was more sold on the attempts to downplay the sci-fi aspects of the Netflix MCU when they seemed to be building up to actually introducing magic and goddamn dragons, and then they backed way the hell off of that after Defenders.

Edited by Unsung on Nov 2nd 2018 at 1:59:18 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#90648: Nov 1st 2018 at 8:02:42 PM

Okay those names are stupid purely because they are referring to obviously God-like & superhuman characters with too casual terms.

Like Thor is not some “cat with a hammer”, he can control thunder for literal God’s sake.

Edited by slimcoder on Nov 1st 2018 at 8:04:31 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#90649: Nov 1st 2018 at 8:03:15 PM

I do wonder how spread "The Hulk" is as a name. In universe it was coined by a pair of interviewees, but Banner and Hulk never use it themselves until Ragnarok.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#90650: Nov 1st 2018 at 8:03:45 PM

Never underestimate the resourcefulness of a bootlegger (though I guess it's not specifically bootlegging in that case).

  • "Yo man, there's aliens on Park Avenue!"
  • "Hold my beer."

Like Thor is not some “cat with a hammer”, he can control thunder for literal God’s sake.

It reminds me of that bit in Thor 2 where a crowd forms around Thor as he's fighting the Dark Elves, and the one guy's like "he's swinging that hammer around and everything!"

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 1st 2018 at 8:04:33 AM


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