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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#90451: Oct 23rd 2018 at 3:37:35 PM

Honestly, I don't really follow the logic there...in the comics, every franchise is part of the continuity, too, right? And if one of them acknowledges the other doesn't matter they are officially in the same world. The live action TV shows are in the MCU, period.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#90452: Oct 23rd 2018 at 3:39:00 PM

There are tiers though.

The movies are the highest level of canon cause every major story-related element comes from them.

They are the top dog, everything else is secondary & tertiary.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 23rd 2018 at 3:39:39 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#90453: Oct 23rd 2018 at 3:41:02 PM

[up][up]Well, no, because this is a subjective, meta complaint. The way the shows are hardly ever acknowledged by the movies makes them feel less a part of that world. Suspension of disbelief is delicate. It's not a huge complaint, but it is harder to ignore the seams as that gap becomes larger. You might not feel that way personally, it might not bother you, but it is there.

Edited by Unsung on Oct 23rd 2018 at 6:08:33 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#90454: Oct 23rd 2018 at 3:42:09 PM

I am not quite sure what you are talking about….It's Hydra. Cut off a head and two will grow in its place is a thing. Hydra was never completely wiped out, even after Ao S managed to create a huge hit against it in season 2, the season ended with clarifying "nope, still Hydra people around ready to regroup".

Agents of SHIELD did the "we wiped out all of HYDRA" bit twice, yes, with almost exactly that wording and all that it implies both times.

Them eventually covering by saying that there were other cells of HYDRA they didn't know about, and now they do, was an explanation made after the fact: them being able to explain it later doesn't make it any less of a contradition at the time, when they fully executed it as a "HYDRA is taken down!" story. It was rather clear that they didn't write it with that caveat in mind the first time around.

Indeed, they wouldn't have had to explain it away and reaffirm the story if there hadn't have been a contradiction in the first place. Again, in retrospect the whole thing comes across as them not initially being aware that the movies still intended to use HYDRA, and the movies not much caring what they were or weren't aware of, forcing them to cover.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 23rd 2018 at 3:44:14 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#90455: Oct 23rd 2018 at 3:48:49 PM

[up] Remind me...which instances are you referring to?

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#90456: Oct 23rd 2018 at 4:11:28 PM

End of season 2 has SHIELD destroy HYDRA, explicitly saying that Strucker (who had been revealed in Civil War at the time and thus whose presence was written into the plot at the time, and was well known to be in Age of Ultron, which aired in the midst of the last two episodes) was the only power left in the organization. At the time, Ward was still in play, but was noted to be a free agent that - at the time - didn't have any power and had an uncertain (if nefarious) future.

Then Ant-Man came out a month after the season ended, explicitly stating the HYDRA was still functional, and establishing that it wasn't a new sect: the person we meet being someone who was within SHIELD for decades.

Come Season 3, where Ward is reroaded into making HYDRA 2.0 (still not connected to the sect mentioned in Ant-Man), and the story starts tossing around the idea that - instead of there being one HYDRA that the heroes can band together and defeat, a la the second season - there are entirely unrelated parts to HYDRA that even Strucker didn't know about (overblown, but something similar to what they should've done from the start, arguably) to explain why their earlier plot was so off base. Then halfway through the season they make all those cells kill each other off anyway.

As noted, the third paragraph is very obvious, but very necessary retcon to the way they wrote the story at the time of the first paragraph, because the movie in between contradicted their intended plot and forced them to change.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 23rd 2018 at 4:13:27 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#90457: Oct 23rd 2018 at 4:50:07 PM

Come Season 3, where Ward is reroaded into making HYDRA 2.0
Uh, no, Ward took over Hydra 2.0 at the end of Season 2. You are misremembering. The US government finally took Hydra down "for good" post-Ant-Man during the latter part of Season 3.

End of season 2 has SHIELD destroy HYDRA, explicitly saying that Strucker (who had been revealed in Civil War at the time and thus whose presence was written into the plot at the time, and was well known to be in Age of Ultron, which aired in the midst of the last two episodes) was the only power left in the organization.
There's a whole lot wrong with this sentence. First of all, Strucker died during Age of Ultron, which came before Civil War. In fact, at the end of Season 2, Age of Ultron had already happened. (End of Season 2 wasn't even about Hydra, it was SHIELD vs. Skye's mom.)

Now, in the middle of Season 2, they destroyed a bunch of heads of Hydra, excluding Strucker and Dr. List. But they never said Hydra was "done" nor did they say that it was all of Hydra. And at the end of Season 2, like I already stated, Ward took over a segment of Hydra that was left.

Season 3 then reveals that Gideon Malick is the head of a completely different branch of Hydra that worships Hive. And then Season 5 reveals that a tiny amount of Hydra still remains, headed by General Hale.

Edited by alliterator on Oct 23rd 2018 at 4:54:24 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#90458: Oct 23rd 2018 at 6:37:56 PM

[up] Do you have the clip? It, or rather anyting concrete from that scene, is proving rather difficult for me to track down.

I only recall him putting together scattered ex-HYDRA muscle into a revenge squad at the end of Season 2, with the context of that season being that he was distancing himself from HYDRA (for entirely deluded, self-centered reasons) and pursuing said vengeances on his own. Whereas all the scenes of him pushing Neo-HYDRA and ousting the old guard (who now exist, explicitly not in the previous season) to build something better definitely come from the beginning of Season 3.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 23rd 2018 at 6:41:46 AM

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#90459: Oct 23rd 2018 at 7:58:21 PM

[up][up] Ward didn't exactly take over Hydra 2.0 at the end of Season 2. He found a bunch of former Hydra members, out of work now that the organization was destroyed, and recruited them to come do his new thing.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#90460: Oct 23rd 2018 at 8:48:03 PM

Some issue I find is that at the end of season two with the whole human thing showing up all over the world....and the movie said nothing about it, you would think the avenger would have one thing or two to said, specially fury consider Shield was invold into that mess.

Or the whole H Ive buisness after all.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#90461: Oct 23rd 2018 at 8:48:40 PM

Sorry, double post.

Edited by unknowing on Oct 23rd 2018 at 11:49:04 AM

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#90462: Oct 23rd 2018 at 9:16:36 PM

Do you have the clip? It, or rather anyting concrete from that scene, is proving rather difficult for me to track down.
I can't find the clip either, but I remember it distinctly: Ward enters the Bad Guy Bar where the Hydra mooks hang out. He asks who is in charge and someone comes forward — and Ward beats them to a pulp against the bar. Then he declares himself in charge of Hydra now and that he wants to be a part of a team again. Another mook steps forward and asks what his plan is — retribution? "No," Ward says, "closure."

The beginning of Season 3 showed him doing a recruitment drive type thing. It wasn't until a few episodes later when that entire thing fell apart (because, of course, he's still Ward) and it's shown that Gideon Malick is actually the leader of a different sect of Hydra and then Ward goes to work for him.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#90463: Oct 23rd 2018 at 9:35:41 PM

Why didn't Bruce just try to shoot himself again?

My various fanfics.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#90464: Oct 23rd 2018 at 9:38:18 PM

His head would've Hulked out, Hulk would've gotten even angrier at him, and he would've turned back into Bruce.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#90465: Oct 23rd 2018 at 9:39:34 PM

Why didn't Bruce just try to shoot himself again?
Because if the Hulk didn't show up, he would have died.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#90466: Oct 23rd 2018 at 10:02:32 PM

It was a desperate situation, anyway. And I'm guessing that as much of a giant, whiny baby as The Hulk was being, he'd like to die even less than he'd like to help other people.

My various fanfics.
AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#90467: Oct 23rd 2018 at 11:46:26 PM

Well I've decided to finally start watching Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Wish me luck.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#90468: Oct 24th 2018 at 1:09:54 AM

Okay, okay...let's take if from the top.

No, Hydra was not gone at the end of season two and then in any way changed into being still around. Here is the history of Hydra:

Ao S discovers that Hydra is still around right around the time Cap did in the Winter Solder. That was the end of season 1. They then struggled in season 2 to continue their work and fighting Hydra as well as possible. Towards the end of season 2 they had the Age of Ultron tie in, when Coulson retrieved data about all the Hydra leaders left during a covert operation. Said data included, among other things, the location of Strucker and the Szepter. Which was the lead in to Age of Ultron. In the episode after Age of Ultron it is established that Coulson was the one who built the helicarrier for Fury, and that Shield used the data to take out Hydra bases across the world. Season 2 then ended with them establishing that the leadership of Hydra is destroyed, but Ward immediately (at the end of season 2 NOT at the start of season 3) declares himself as a new leader, hence suggesting that all the pockets of Hydra agents which are left might or might not get their own leadership. So, if there is still a Hydra agent turning up in Ant-man (which happens between season 3 and 4 of Ao S) this doesn't matter, because the show itself has established from the get go that wiping out the leadership doesn't equal it being completely gone. They themselves showed in season 5 a situation in which a Hydra leaders gets arrested, but his underling continued the work he did undetected, and that is a decision which had nothing to do with the movies.

Oh, and season 3 Ao S establishes that Hydra is actually an off-shot of an ancient cult, but none of this takes anything away form the Hydra we know from the movies, quite the opposite, they also establish that at least one member of the World Council in The Avengers was a Hydra Cult member.

So no, the show didn't destroy and resurrect Hydra. It's just not true. (They are, though, a little bit confused about the status of Shield, but this has little to do with the movies).

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#90469: Oct 24th 2018 at 1:10:57 AM

Man I'm tired of hearing about Hydra.

When are they gonna bring in A.I.M.?

Cause now with the advent of the X-Men returning we can get the U.S.Avengers lead by Robert da Costa, otherwise known as Sunspot.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 24th 2018 at 1:18:01 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#90470: Oct 24th 2018 at 1:22:57 AM

[up] Season 1 of Ao S. They got taken down in the mid-season finale.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#90471: Oct 24th 2018 at 1:26:14 AM

Okay they can be bought out now.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
VoidsEmpathy Emissary of the Void from Realm of In-Between Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: A heart full of love
Emissary of the Void
#90472: Oct 24th 2018 at 7:03:44 AM

AIM was a front in Iron Man 3, as Tony discovered. Considering that Killian was using disabled military veterans as test subjects for Extremis where they either made it work or just exploded.

Killian being the Mandarin was really dumb, as we found out that wasn’t the case anyway.

Edit: damn, the Hand has struck again!

Edited by VoidsEmpathy on Oct 24th 2018 at 10:04:32 AM

[DATA LOST]
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#90473: Oct 24th 2018 at 7:12:56 AM

If the Hand has to fight it's self it's Hand to Hand combat

evil grin

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#90474: Oct 24th 2018 at 7:14:43 AM

Spoilering because we just had someone state that he's starting to watch the show:

The show definitely went back to the "It's Hydra! AGAIN!" well way too often. Villain Decay for both Hydra and Grant Ward bogged down the first half of season three pretty harshly.

The second half, once Hive shows up, is substantially better. Because Hive is awesome and easily the show's best villain.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#90475: Oct 24th 2018 at 8:42:24 AM

Season 1 of A o S. They got taken down in the mid-season finale.
That wasn't AIM, that was Centipede which was still Hydra. Really, I do wish they would bring back AIM, because that's a group that has never been used since Iron Man 3 and Hydra has just been used so much. I think they are worried about using another group whose goal is world domination, but I think if they concentrate on the "this is a group of MAD SCIENTISTS!" aspect, it could work.

Also, it was late in Season 3 when Talbot showed Coulson the US government taking down almost all of Hydra, using intel that Gideon Malick gave him. Then in Season 5, we learn there was a small portion (led by General Hale) that wasn't arrested.


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