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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#89801: Sep 28th 2018 at 10:25:40 PM

I don't think anything short of death will stop him from suiting up.
Perhaps I'm more used to the comic version, who actually had to deal with his alcoholism and was replaced for a time by Rhodey, but I don't believe that's true.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#89802: Sep 28th 2018 at 10:28:34 PM

Well, alcoholism certainly didn't stop him in Iron Man 2.

Unibeams are good for splattering watermelons, incidentally.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#89803: Sep 28th 2018 at 10:34:41 PM

Yes, that's why I referred to the comic version, where his alcoholism did stop him for a time.

I still think that not doing the "Demon in a Bottle" storyline was a bad idea. I know it's not "kid friendly," but then again, neither is killing half the universe.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#89804: Sep 28th 2018 at 10:39:19 PM

“For a time”.

He eventually returned so it doesn’t change anything.

Nothing will stop him permanently, that’s irrefutable fact.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#89805: Sep 28th 2018 at 10:43:50 PM

He eventually returned so it doesn’t change anything.
This is comic books, nothing changes permanently. Captain America died and then came back from being dead (more than once). Peter Parker sold his marriage to the Devil so that the writers could try and turn back the clock again and make him more "relatable." Using the fact that nothing changes in comics to prove I'm wrong is...kind of ingenious, actually, but also completely misses the point, because the MCU isn't comics and the MCU must change somehow if it wants to keep going without Robert Downey Jr.

Edited by alliterator on Sep 28th 2018 at 10:43:37 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#89806: Sep 28th 2018 at 10:44:39 PM

So death or just taking a backseat to things.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#89807: Sep 28th 2018 at 10:49:13 PM

That's the point — is there something, aside from death, that would make Tony Stark retire from being Iron Man? I mean, saying "only death will stop him" paints him as some sort of human Terminator, when he clearly isn't; he's a messed up individual with carefully controlled PTSD and alcohol-related issues, probably which he inherited from his father (and don't even get me started on his daddy issues). One of these days, he might have a complete mental breakdown, at which point he can't operate as Iron Man anymore.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#89808: Sep 28th 2018 at 10:55:22 PM

He’s already dealt with his issues & has made peace with them for the most part.

The fact he got back together with Pepper, even getting engaged in Homecoming & that their still going on strong in Infinity War while planning to conceive a child shows that being Iron Man won’t disrupt his life anymore.

The man is at peace.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#89809: Sep 28th 2018 at 11:00:16 PM

He’s already dealt with his issues & has made peace with them for the most part.
He dealt with some of his father issues in Iron Man 2 and his PTSD issues in Iron Man 3 (although they were swept away much too quickly for my liking), only for the PTSD issues to reappear in Age of Ultron and the daddy issues to reappear in Civil War. It's clear that even though he thought he dealt with them, they go much deeper and he hasn't actually dealt with them at all. He is clearly not at peace.

Also, even though he was talking about having a child, that doesn't mean that they were actually planning on having one.

I have a feeling this conversation is also going in circles and nobody else is chiming in. Why don't we let some other people have their say?

Edited by alliterator on Sep 28th 2018 at 11:00:28 AM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#89810: Sep 28th 2018 at 11:58:08 PM

Daredevil season 3 poster.

[up][up]Yeah the only way I see his arc ending is with death at this point.

Edited by comicwriter on Sep 29th 2018 at 12:01:01 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#89811: Sep 29th 2018 at 1:46:46 AM

Tony has spend pretty much since Age of Ultron all his time finding a way to give the responsibility he carries to someone else. So, yeah, I can see him retiring. But dying works too, now that they have a new tech genius in the MCU.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#89812: Sep 29th 2018 at 2:42:22 AM

Has he? Civil War has it as a plot point that he tried to retire (again) but it didn't work out. And whether he was specifically grooming a replacement for himself in Peter is unclear.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#89813: Sep 29th 2018 at 3:18:18 AM

[up] Yes, he has. "Isn't that why we fight so that we can end the fight so that we can go home". That is the point of Ultron, creating a shield so strong that Tony has a peace of mind. But he also creates Vision, right? So he can go into semi retirement - except that Vision isn't as perfect as he seemed to be first in Civil War. And naturally there is still this big danger hovering over him.

Tony is also very concerned about his legacy. It's another running theme which could get wrapped up by showing what his legacy is at the end of Avengers 4.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#89814: Sep 29th 2018 at 10:49:34 AM

I'm very much on board with Iron Man and Captain America dying. The others can live though, especially Thor and Hulk.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#89815: Sep 29th 2018 at 10:59:51 AM

I never liked Cap, he can die. It would also be fitting, since he is basically a man without a purpose when not fighting. For Tony, I'd be really happy if he would be able to retire.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#89816: Sep 29th 2018 at 1:57:38 PM

I just want Steve to get a hug and some therapy, dammit. If he dies, at least show him seeing Peggy in the afterlife or something. Poor man.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#89817: Sep 29th 2018 at 2:06:15 PM

In any case, I look forward to seen Steve and Tony interact with each other. In a lot of ways this scene is the most important they HAVE to get right.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#89818: Sep 29th 2018 at 2:38:04 PM

If he dies, at least show him seeing Peggy in the afterlife or something. Poor man.

That's how I'd have him go. I've said this before, but for Steve I see him going out like he did in the "Infinity Gauntlet" comic. In a hopeless battle against Thanos, with him defiantly declaring:

Cap - "As long as one man stands up to you, you'll never win."

Thanos - "Noble sentiments from a man about to die."

Cap - "I've lived my life by those sentiments. They're well-worth dying for."

And then Thanos kills him. But due some unspecified Soul/Time Stone shenanigans caused earlier or after, Steve finally gets to dance with Peggy (either by their souls meeting up and having one last meeting or by actually flickering through time to dance with Peggy alone in her bedroom or something) and that's the note we end his character on. Literally The Last Dance.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#89819: Sep 29th 2018 at 2:56:45 PM

Urgh...I HATE this idea. As much as I like Steve and Peggy, Peggy is more than just Steve's love interest. And this wouldn't be satisfying at all. I always disliked the whole "at least they are happy in the afterlife" concept.

Rather I would have Steve dying but through the act of doing it defeating Thanos and being resurrected.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#89820: Sep 29th 2018 at 3:21:33 PM

Being resurrected would pretty much ruin the whole aspect of Steve going out in a defiant blaze of glory against Thanos, so no thank you, I'll stick with The Last Dance of Steve and Peggy.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#89821: Sep 29th 2018 at 3:24:59 PM

Steve and Peggy technically already had their dance in Age of Ultron.

2nd dance?

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#89822: Sep 29th 2018 at 3:26:10 PM

Well that dance was kind of ruined by all the soldiers dying around them and the fact it wasn't real, so better let that be.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#89823: Sep 29th 2018 at 4:16:50 PM

Thought this was interesting:

Why did Thanos make that face when Captain America was holding his hand?

“The serum amplifies everything that is inside, so good becomes great; bad becomes worse. This is why you were chosen.”

This was the entire moral of the story of The First Avenger. There are some other things going on in the scene with Thanos, but I want to start here because it is the most overlooked aspect of Cap’s character. Cap’s super power in the MCU isn’t enhanced strength and speed, it’s his iron will, loyalty, and desire to defend the little guy. As Dr. Erskine said, those are why he was chosen, and why Cap seems to succeed where other humans enhanced with other serums fail.

This definitely isn’t the first time in the MCU we see Cap do things that shouldn’t be possible when his heart is aflame. We’ll skip over all the times he fought and held his own against massively powerful opponents, though those are all great.

  • Remember that time when he held down a helicopter because he didn’t want to lose his best friend again?
  • Or the time when he lifted a metal beam conservatively estimated at 4 tons after being shot multiple times, including through the abdomen?
  • He also disabled an Iron Man suit that can absorb cannon fire from a tank in a fist fight.

According to the lore, no one is able to successfully replicate Dr. Erskine’s version of the super soldier serum. Perhaps there is a metaphysical aspect to it. Perhaps the secret ingredient is Steve Rogers, a guy who never believed doing the right thing was the same as being strong enough to do it. Whatever the explanation, Cap will always be the scrappy underdog, and is certainly capable of dishing out some surprises, even to the Mad Titan.

However, I also accept that while Cap is huge in the clutch, there really must be more to the story to bring a wince or grimace to the face of a guy who scores a 1 round KO on the Hulk.

...

The next thing I think is at play is how ownership of the Infinity Stones works. What gives someone control over an Infinity Stone? The Gauntlet certainly retains them in a convenient and secure place, but does the Gauntlet also provide the means of control over the stones, or is it simply the possession of the stones that matters? We really don’t know yet, but Thanos did mention that he is the only one with the will to do what needs to be done for the galaxy.

Could it be that Cap’s aforementioned extraordinary will was enough to bump one of the stones, similar to how he was able to just nudge Mjolnir? Or maybe the soul stone, which seems fraught with strangeness and consequence throughout the film, allowed Thanos to finally experience that what he thinks about himself may not be true.

...

Lastly, there is a high probability of magical hijinks in progress, the particulars of which are to be revealed later. I don’t have a solid theory yet, but I suspect time travel and subtle interventions that shaped things the way they needed to be will be involved. Consider the following:

  • Infinity War makes it clear that Scarlet Witch’s magic works in a similar way or on a similar magical wavelength to at least the Mind Stone, and is capable of destroying it. This is likely due to the fact that HYDRA used Loki’s scepter to enhance her and her brother.
  • Tony Stark’s vision of the Avengers dead and defeated was triggered by the Scarlet Witch. In Infinity War, Tony mentions that he has been haunted by dreams of Thanos, and Thanos, who possessed the mind stone before lending it to Loki, knows Tony Stark on sight.
  • The power of the mind stone did not work on Tony in the first Avengers. At the time, this was assumed to be a near fourth wall break gag about Tony’s arc reactor subverting another good guy mind control subplot. It worked because it was hilarious and not because it made even a little bit of sense, but will probably be revealed to have something to do with a time traveler swapping out the scepter at that moment or the Stark / Scarlet Witch / Thanos connection.
  • The Soul Stone is the only one that requires some kind of worthiness test to obtain. It enslaved Red Skull, and apparently showed Thanos Gamora, or actually contains her soul post death. It is almost as if the stone has a will of its own, which opens Thanos to all kinds of trickery.
  • Ant Man was last seen drifting in the quantum realm, which allows access to all kinds of heretofore unknown and unseen powers and influences.

Any of these things could account for some kind of influence that caused Thanos to make a face and swat Cap away rather than inexorably lowering his hand to smash him. I do still think that Cap played some kind of role though, even if it was just creating the right moment for doubt.

Edited by Soble on Sep 29th 2018 at 4:19:56 AM

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#89824: Sep 29th 2018 at 4:34:43 PM

Y'know, musing on it, it might actually be possible for Tony to retire after this.

The thing that kept drawing him back in, the reason he could never stop, the source of his anxiety and his dedication, was always Thanos. From the moment Loki hit Germany, Tony's been fighting Thanos. He may not have had a name, but Thanos has been the thing that keeps him up at night, the thing that drives him to build Ultron and Vision, the source of all of his apprehensions.

Tony could never stop because he knew, he knew that Thanos was coming and that the Earth would not be ready for him when he got here. He's dedicated his life to thwarting Thanos. Tony, more than anyone save Gamora, is Thanos's archnemesis. It's the whole reason he got to have that villain respect speech from the guy.

From Avengers to Iron Man 3 and on to Age of Ultron and Civil War, Tony has always been fighting Thanos.

But once that battle's over? When Thanos has been defeated, the damage has been unmade, and the Earth no longer has to fear impending invasion from the guy who sent Loki? That might just be the day that Tony can finally go home.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 29th 2018 at 5:36:55 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#89825: Sep 29th 2018 at 4:45:20 PM

You make sense.

And then, the moment he decides to retire...he dies.

Because that's how you punish Tony Stark.[lol]

One Strip! One Strip!

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