TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Marvel Cinematic Universe

Go To

Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#89701: Sep 27th 2018 at 10:04:21 PM

When has Gamora showed awareness for crimes? She's sorry about what happened with Nebula, but that's about it.

She tells Peter she stole the Orb and fled Ronan and Thanos so as to not aid them in destroying Xandar. When cornered in prison but given the opportunity to kill her captors, Gamora spares them. When battling Nebula, she urges her to join forces so they stand for what's right, as she puts it.

That is very untrue: Wanda was horrified because his plans involved the death of millions. She signed up to get revenge on Stark, not to kill loads of people.

It's a bit of both. She didn't sign up for xenocide under Ultron, but until then she was fine with killing anybody in her way in all her prior scenes. It's the same plot point in Guardians 1 of "former criminals chose to fight against full massacre", but it's much more heroic in Guardians because the point is made that the protagonists could just flee, but choose not to. Wanda is never given that option, thus making her choice for her, because fighting Ultron now is the only one left.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Sep 27th 2018 at 10:04:59 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#89702: Sep 27th 2018 at 10:14:25 PM

She tells Peter she stole the Orb and fled Ronan and Thanos so as to not aid them in destroying Xandar. When cornered in prison but given the opportunity to kill her captors, Gamora spares them. When battling Nebula, she urges her to join forces so they stand for what's right, as she puts it.
How is that showing awareness for past crimes? That's showing that she doesn't want to commit future crimes.

Wanda is never given that option, thus making her choice for her, because fighting Ultron now is the only one left.
She is given a chance to not fight, though. Hawkeye tells her that she could stay inside and wait for her brother or go out and fight. So she fights. That's her making a choice to do good. (Also, there was a moment earlier where she fought Ultron — she could have run away, but she didn't want those people to die.)

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#89703: Sep 27th 2018 at 10:17:28 PM

Just because this is a world of magic and space gods doesn't mean people don't die. "It's fiction, it isn't realistic" is and always has been a ridiculous deflection.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#89704: Sep 27th 2018 at 10:20:59 PM

I didn't say nobody died ever. I said nobody died due the Hulk's rampage in Johannesburg. And I gave a very good reason why — because if people did die, it would have been the perfect incident for Ross to bring up in Civil War, but he doesn't. The only reason why he never brings it up is because nobody died.

If you have a better reason why he doesn't bring it up (that's Watsonian and not Doylist), please tell me.

Edited by alliterator on Sep 27th 2018 at 10:21:45 AM

SallyShears Since: Mar, 2015
#89705: Sep 27th 2018 at 10:24:57 PM

I'm sure someone's said this, but just in case they haven't I'll toss this WMG out there:

Dr. Strange had something to do with why all the original Avengers survived the finger-snap. He saw millions of possible futures, with the heroes only winning in one. He presumably had to set off one hell of a Butterfly Effect to make sure that specific future happened. I don't know quite how, but somehow, he knew what to say and do to ensure that the random finger-snap randomly spared the key Avengers, as they would be needed to ultimately take down Thanos and reverse the snap.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#89706: Sep 27th 2018 at 10:25:28 PM

slimcoder: I knowm is just....we dont know what she did, is easy when the public dosent know, compare bucky with widow: the former need to confront his past while the later did it offscreen.

"Karma is not totally nonexistent there." that is not karme because none of it happen because of her actions, she got caught between two mens dickery and then another purple men kill is beloved...

"They act pretty much just like she acts." Because the movie pretty much cut the way wanda acted in AOU, is really cringy see her creating the destruction in south africa and then another in lagos and pretend the former didnt happen.

"Her entire childhood was defined by the death of her parents." Gamora and her siste(which I guess they are not biological sister of course) were taken as child, they didnt have any choice in the matter, Wanda join willing.

"he current day Hyra looked a lot different from the 1940s Hydra" they are led by a guy call stroker, is clear they didnt gave much of a shit considering they join the big tall robot later on.

" would people like her the same way?" Maybe, we dont know, we saw what wanda did but the movie dosent want you to remenber, also Bruce was pissed in the movie, he grab wanda and said "come, try to see my mind again", he was so far the only moment I have seen Bruce angry and damn he have the right too.

"The only reason that people don't want to believe nobody died is because of "realism" — which is a silly thing to think about in this world of magic and space gods."

Is unrealistic in the way it is silly-that old "we have a fight in city but nobody dies" sound good in the old series were you cant show death but it become weird and plain stupid if you have a fight of such a magnitude and pull off a "actually nobody really did", it break inmersion and feel contrive as hell.

Also your argument hinge on "if you dont see it, it didnt happen" which it relies in marvel show actuall on screen dead of civilians, a big no no for marvel.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#89707: Sep 27th 2018 at 10:40:10 PM

No she has culpability.

She's the one who launched Crossbones into the building, escaped from her mandated house arrest to join Cap under her own volition, and denied Vision's desire to end his life immediately which is how Thanos got the Stone in the first place.

Also Natasha was a spy & an assassin. Its pretty easy to assume what she did there & even if we don't see it still affects her to this day.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#89708: Sep 27th 2018 at 10:51:25 PM

[up]in fact, between helping ultron to take the vibranium and killing of wakanda worker, she have contributed a lot against wakandaevil grin.

And is easy to imply but it dosent mean anything because she could have done everything, look bucky again, he murder a lot of people but we never though he did that to howard.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#89709: Sep 27th 2018 at 10:54:59 PM

How is that showing awareness for past crimes? That's showing that she doesn't want to commit future crimes

I am struggling to think of a plausible situation where a person trying to avoid committing future crimes is not aware of their past ones.

She is given a chance to not fight, though

Both those times come after Wanda's already learned it's her life on the line now (coupled with the rest of Earth's.)

I said nobody died due the Hulk's rampage in Johannesburg. And I gave a very good reason why — because if people did die, it would have been the perfect incident for Ross to bring up in Civil War, but he doesn't

We saw two ordinary humans get a car kicked into them by the most powerful being on the planet. Call it a retcon in Civil War. But in the context of AOU, the Hulk killed people.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Sep 27th 2018 at 10:55:24 AM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#89710: Sep 27th 2018 at 10:57:46 PM

And why ross didnt mention...maybe because hulk is lost and there is not way to blame him....but yeah more of it is doylist.

Im kinda wonder what happen if bruce and ross see each other again after all this years.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#89711: Sep 27th 2018 at 11:13:02 PM

Because the movie pretty much cut the way wanda acted in AOU, is really cringy see her creating the destruction in south africa and then another in lagos and pretend the former didnt happen.
Watsonian not Doylist, please.

Gamora and her siste(which I guess they are not biological sister of course) were taken as child, they didnt have any choice in the matter, Wanda join willing.
And? I thought we were comparing shitty childhoods. If we want to talk "willingness," Nebula does a lot of horrible shit, but we all love her in Vol 2 and Infinity War.

they are led by a guy call stroker, is clear they didnt gave much of a shit considering they join the big tall robot later on.
Not his name and he wasn't the only member of Hydra. Also, yes, they didn't really care about Hydra, either.

Also your argument hinge on "if you dont see it, it didnt happen" which it relies in marvel show actuall on screen dead of civilians, a big no no for marvel.
No one has to die on screen, someone has to just say that people died. But nobody mentions anyone dying in Johannesburg, therefore nobody died.

Also Natasha was a spy & an assassin. Its pretty easy to assume what she did there
Knowing what she did is different from seeing what she did.

I am struggling to think of a plausible situation where a person trying to avoid committing future crimes is not aware of their past ones.
Being "aware" of their past crimes is not the same thing as trying to atone for past crimes. We know Natasha is trying to atone, because she has specifically said so — she has "red in her ledger." But Gamora never says that she's trying to atone for anything, she simply changes her behavior.

Both those times come after Wanda's already learned it's her life on the line now (coupled with the rest of Earth's.)
And? She could have left Ultron to the Avengers and they would have taken care of him and she would have been fine. But she chose to fight.

We saw two ordinary humans get a car kicked into them
Did we see the car crush them or even hit them? Then they didn't die.

And why ross didnt mention...maybe because hulk is lost and there is not way to blame him....but yeah more of it is doylist.
He would have blamed Wanda for it the deaths.

Also, you haven't answered my question: why is Wanda "pretending" and the others aren't? Why is Wanda continually blamed for things from her past, but the others aren't? She had possibly the shittiest childhood in the Avengers and continually tries to do good after leaving Ultron, but you guys appear to continually blame her for things that she did before she knew Ultron's master plan. Is anyone blaming Pietro? No. (I mean, probably because he's dead, but still.)

Edited by alliterator on Sep 27th 2018 at 11:19:26 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#89712: Sep 27th 2018 at 11:23:32 PM

No one has to die on screen, someone has to just say that people died. But nobody mentions anyone dying in Johannesburg, therefore nobody died.

But Gamora never says that she's trying to atone for anything, she simply changes her behavior.

These are extremely literal ways to interpret movies, a visual medium.

Clearly nobody died when this Celestial put his glowy staff in a planet. Nobody said they died.

Did we see the car crush them or even hit them?

Yes.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Sep 27th 2018 at 11:24:51 AM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#89713: Sep 27th 2018 at 11:31:29 PM

"Watsonian not Doylist, please." there isnt watsonian reasoning here, they didnt try.

" I thought we were comparing shitty childhoods" no, I said gamora does have a sort of exuse not because of shitty childhood but because he was indoctrinated into thanos service and was under his thumb, pretty diferent.

"he wasn't the only member of Hydra. " but he was the leader of that faction, and caring or not they got their power for them in exchange for vengance.

"But nobody mentions anyone dying in Johannesburg, therefore nobody died." by the same token nobody die in sokovia until someone mentions? again is silly thinking.

"He would have blamed Wanda for it the deaths" but it was hulk, ross biggest nemesis the one who did it.

"why is Wanda "pretending" and the others aren't?" because Wanda join hydra, mess with Tony head(does he even know she did that?) help Ultron, throw Hulk into a city with civilians and...the movie dosent really care, neither Civil war..you know, the movie that deal with acountability.

compare with Gamorra and Black widow there is a unseen but a least logical conection between them: Natasha try to atone for what she does and regret she did help hydra and Gamorra try to stop thanos.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#89714: Sep 27th 2018 at 11:36:24 PM

Movies are about framing. The battle in Johannisburg is framed in a way which suggests at every turn that Tony managed to subdue the Hulk before he could actually kill anyone. That doesn't mean that nobody got hurt, they actually show some people with minor injuries to but the point across (nobody can be thrown around in an elevator that way without having at least a scratch in the end), but otherwise it goes out of its way to clarify that Tony is preventing the worst and that the only result is property damage stark industry will pay far.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#89715: Sep 28th 2018 at 12:03:23 AM

These are extremely literal ways to interpret movies, a visual medium.
You can assume things, but that's all they are: assumptions. Unless something is seen or mentioned specifically, it's up for debate. You are right, this is a visual medium, but it's also expressed through dialogue and exposition. Neither of which confirms any deaths or Gamora's relationship with her past deeds.

Yes.
I've seen the scene in question. The car doesn't hit them — they fall from the shockwave. Look at them. They are next to the car and it never appears to actually hit them.

there isnt watsonian reasoning here, they didnt try.
There is always Watsonian reasoning.

no, I said gamora does have a sort of exuse not because of shitty childhood but because he was indoctrinated into thanos service and was under his thumb, pretty diferent.
If Gamora had an excuse because of her childhood, so did Wanda.

by the same token nobody die in sokovia until someone mentions? again is silly thinking.
Except we see people dying in Sokovia.

but it was hulk, ross biggest nemesis the one who did it.
The Hulk instigated by Wanda. He wouldn't have passed up the opportunity to point that out.

The battle in Johannisburg is framed in a way which suggests at every turn that Tony managed to subdue the Hulk before he could actually kill anyone.
Exactly.

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#89716: Sep 28th 2018 at 1:44:36 AM

Don't forget about Joss Whedon's witty dialogue stuff?!

"Mai waifu."
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#89717: Sep 28th 2018 at 3:38:00 AM

Comparing Wanda with Natasha and Gamora and Wanda is actually less guilty. Because Wanda never killed anyone directly like those two did. And while she might be partly responsible for Sokovia by helping Ultron in the beginning, she had no idea what he was planning to do. She thought this was just about attacking the Avengers.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#89718: Sep 28th 2018 at 5:52:21 AM

Alliterator, this insistence on keeping up an argument until you've gotten everybody to agree with you (particularly on one contentious enough we've had over and over and over again) and especially this need to microaddress every person's points down to individual lines and words is what got you banned in the first place. You should probably lay off a little.

Fighteer MOD Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#89719: Sep 28th 2018 at 6:04:16 AM

~alliterator: I removed your suspension with the understanding that these sorts of nit-picky arguments wouldn't keep happening, yet you went right back to them. Are you really this dense? Consider this a final, final warning.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Cross (Don’t ask)
#89720: Sep 28th 2018 at 6:11:34 AM

Wanda was probably guilty of less, but I see she was necessary less guilty than those two.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#89721: Sep 28th 2018 at 6:29:58 AM

Eh, Gamora participated in the killing of half of the population of whole planets. I don't think you can beat that.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#89722: Sep 28th 2018 at 6:31:41 AM

Not willingly, and she's dead now. I think that allowances have to be made for coercion and other extreme circumstances.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#89723: Sep 28th 2018 at 6:48:04 AM

No, Infinity War confirmed that there was a period during which Gamora actually believed into Thanos ideas.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#89724: Sep 28th 2018 at 6:51:44 AM

The idea that nobody die in battle of south africa feel odd because Hulk display a huge leve of destruction in what ais a huge populate city, right down to fight in a huge building, and the idea ross didnt metion because nobody die is missing the point in that it was a fuck up, that they lost control of Hulk by the same girl that is now part of the team.

But in general the point of wanda is not whatever is guilty or no. but that Civil war, the movie ABOUT acountability fail to even engage her at any level. it does with steve, picking is need to start fights and stoborn nature,Bucky and the deaths he commit, Tony and is need to control stuff and ether others chararters like T´challa who merciless nature serve zemo interest but with Wanda it just absent which is weird because she does have her share of guilt in the whole stuff with Ultron.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#89725: Sep 28th 2018 at 6:54:51 AM

[up][up] Sure, but she stopped believing in them and defected before he wiped out half of everyone, so I don't see how you can call her complicit. Or do you mean genocides that Thanos perpetrated in his backstory?

From the perspective of the MCU, that's pretty much Offscreen Villainy, and if Drax (one of his explicit victims) is willing to forgive and work with Gamora, I think we can as well.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Total posts: 186,763
Top