Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules
still apply.
- This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
- While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread
. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
- Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.
If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.
Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
I didn't say nobody died ever. I said nobody died due the Hulk's rampage in Johannesburg. And I gave a very good reason why — because if people did die, it would have been the perfect incident for Ross to bring up in Civil War, but he doesn't. The only reason why he never brings it up is because nobody died.
If you have a better reason why he doesn't bring it up (that's Watsonian and not Doylist
), please tell me.
Edited by alliterator on Sep 27th 2018 at 10:21:45 AM
I'm sure someone's said this, but just in case they haven't I'll toss this WMG out there:
Dr. Strange had something to do with why all the original Avengers survived the finger-snap. He saw millions of possible futures, with the heroes only winning in one. He presumably had to set off one hell of a Butterfly Effect to make sure that specific future happened. I don't know quite how, but somehow, he knew what to say and do to ensure that the random finger-snap randomly spared the key Avengers, as they would be needed to ultimately take down Thanos and reverse the snap.
slimcoder: I knowm is just....we dont know what she did, is easy when the public dosent know, compare bucky with widow: the former need to confront his past while the later did it offscreen.
"Karma is not totally nonexistent there." that is not karme because none of it happen because of her actions, she got caught between two mens dickery and then another purple men kill is beloved...
"They act pretty much just like she acts." Because the movie pretty much cut the way wanda acted in AOU, is really cringy see her creating the destruction in south africa and then another in lagos and pretend the former didnt happen.
"Her entire childhood was defined by the death of her parents." Gamora and her siste(which I guess they are not biological sister of course) were taken as child, they didnt have any choice in the matter, Wanda join willing.
"he current day Hyra looked a lot different from the 1940s Hydra" they are led by a guy call stroker, is clear they didnt gave much of a shit considering they join the big tall robot later on.
" would people like her the same way?" Maybe, we dont know, we saw what wanda did but the movie dosent want you to remenber, also Bruce was pissed in the movie, he grab wanda and said "come, try to see my mind again", he was so far the only moment I have seen Bruce angry and damn he have the right too.
"The only reason that people don't want to believe nobody died is because of "realism" — which is a silly thing to think about in this world of magic and space gods."
Is unrealistic in the way it is silly-that old "we have a fight in city but nobody dies" sound good in the old series were you cant show death but it become weird and plain stupid if you have a fight of such a magnitude and pull off a "actually nobody really did", it break inmersion and feel contrive as hell.
Also your argument hinge on "if you dont see it, it didnt happen" which it relies in marvel show actuall on screen dead of civilians, a big no no for marvel.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"No she has culpability.
She's the one who launched Crossbones into the building, escaped from her mandated house arrest to join Cap under her own volition, and denied Vision's desire to end his life immediately which is how Thanos got the Stone in the first place.
Also Natasha was a spy & an assassin. Its pretty easy to assume what she did there & even if we don't see it still affects her to this day.
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
in fact, between helping ultron to take the vibranium and killing of wakanda worker, she have contributed a lot against wakanda
.
And is easy to imply but it dosent mean anything because she could have done everything, look bucky again, he murder a lot of people but we never though he did that to howard.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"I am struggling to think of a plausible situation where a person trying to avoid committing future crimes is not aware of their past ones.
Both those times come after Wanda's already learned it's her life on the line now (coupled with the rest of Earth's.)
We saw two ordinary humans get a car kicked into them by the most powerful being on the planet. Call it a retcon in Civil War. But in the context of AOU, the Hulk killed people.
Edited by Tuckerscreator on Sep 27th 2018 at 10:55:24 AM
Also, you haven't answered my question: why is Wanda "pretending" and the others aren't? Why is Wanda continually blamed for things from her past, but the others aren't? She had possibly the shittiest childhood in the Avengers and continually tries to do good after leaving Ultron, but you guys appear to continually blame her for things that she did before she knew Ultron's master plan. Is anyone blaming Pietro? No. (I mean, probably because he's dead, but still.)
Edited by alliterator on Sep 27th 2018 at 11:19:26 AM
These are extremely literal ways to interpret movies, a visual medium.
Clearly nobody died when this Celestial put his glowy staff in a planet. Nobody said they died.
Yes
.
Edited by Tuckerscreator on Sep 27th 2018 at 11:24:51 AM
"Watsonian not Doylist, please." there isnt watsonian reasoning here, they didnt try.
" I thought we were comparing shitty childhoods" no, I said gamora does have a sort of exuse not because of shitty childhood but because he was indoctrinated into thanos service and was under his thumb, pretty diferent.
"he wasn't the only member of Hydra. " but he was the leader of that faction, and caring or not they got their power for them in exchange for vengance.
"But nobody mentions anyone dying in Johannesburg, therefore nobody died." by the same token nobody die in sokovia until someone mentions? again is silly thinking.
"He would have blamed Wanda for it the deaths" but it was hulk, ross biggest nemesis the one who did it.
"why is Wanda "pretending" and the others aren't?" because Wanda join hydra, mess with Tony head(does he even know she did that?) help Ultron, throw Hulk into a city with civilians and...the movie dosent really care, neither Civil war..you know, the movie that deal with acountability.
compare with Gamorra and Black widow there is a unseen but a least logical conection between them: Natasha try to atone for what she does and regret she did help hydra and Gamorra try to stop thanos.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"Movies are about framing. The battle in Johannisburg is framed in a way which suggests at every turn that Tony managed to subdue the Hulk before he could actually kill anyone. That doesn't mean that nobody got hurt, they actually show some people with minor injuries to but the point across (nobody can be thrown around in an elevator that way without having at least a scratch in the end), but otherwise it goes out of its way to clarify that Tony is preventing the worst and that the only result is property damage stark industry will pay far.
Comparing Wanda with Natasha and Gamora and Wanda is actually less guilty. Because Wanda never killed anyone directly like those two did. And while she might be partly responsible for Sokovia by helping Ultron in the beginning, she had no idea what he was planning to do. She thought this was just about attacking the Avengers.
Alliterator, this insistence on keeping up an argument until you've gotten everybody to agree with you (particularly on one contentious enough we've had over and over and over again) and especially this need to microaddress every person's points down to individual lines and words is what got you banned in the first place. You should probably lay off a little.
~alliterator: I removed your suspension with the understanding that these sorts of nit-picky arguments wouldn't keep happening, yet you went right back to them. Are you really this dense? Consider this a final, final warning.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Not willingly, and she's dead now. I think that allowances have to be made for coercion and other extreme circumstances.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"The idea that nobody die in battle of south africa feel odd because Hulk display a huge leve of destruction in what ais a huge populate city, right down to fight in a huge building, and the idea ross didnt metion because nobody die is missing the point in that it was a fuck up, that they lost control of Hulk by the same girl that is now part of the team.
But in general the point of wanda is not whatever is guilty or no. but that Civil war, the movie ABOUT acountability fail to even engage her at any level. it does with steve, picking is need to start fights and stoborn nature,Bucky and the deaths he commit, Tony and is need to control stuff and ether others chararters like T´challa who merciless nature serve zemo interest but with Wanda it just absent which is weird because she does have her share of guilt in the whole stuff with Ultron.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"![]()
Sure, but she stopped believing in them and defected before he wiped out half of everyone, so I don't see how you can call her complicit. Or do you mean genocides that Thanos perpetrated in his backstory?
From the perspective of the MCU, that's pretty much Offscreen Villainy, and if Drax (one of his explicit victims) is willing to forgive and work with Gamora, I think we can as well.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

She tells Peter she stole the Orb and fled Ronan and Thanos so as to not aid them in destroying Xandar. When cornered in prison but given the opportunity to kill her captors, Gamora spares them. When battling Nebula, she urges her to join forces so they stand for what's right, as she puts it.
It's a bit of both. She didn't sign up for xenocide under Ultron, but until then she was fine with killing anybody in her way in all her prior scenes. It's the same plot point in Guardians 1 of "former criminals chose to fight against full massacre", but it's much more heroic in Guardians because the point is made that the protagonists could just flee, but choose not to. Wanda is never given that option, thus making her choice for her, because fighting Ultron now is the only one left.
Edited by Tuckerscreator on Sep 27th 2018 at 10:04:59 AM