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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#89676: Sep 27th 2018 at 3:45:48 PM

The tossed passenger maybe, if they had Plot Armor. The cops and the car, they were definitely crushed.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#89677: Sep 27th 2018 at 3:51:13 PM

I'm sure they just walked it off.

One Strip! One Strip!
FictionAddiction Lurker turned Troper from My Home, duh Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Singularity
Lurker turned Troper
#89678: Sep 27th 2018 at 4:03:24 PM

I mean, the Accords were always an excuse for Hero Vs. Hero fights. That's was kind of the whole original crossover in a nutshell.

Well, then I have expected too much from AAA blockbuster of a giant media-entertainment conglomerate like Disney.

I am a simple man, I like stories therefore I dissect and discuss them.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#89679: Sep 27th 2018 at 4:20:43 PM

Even if the accords were just a excuse it also provied a problem of taking about the limits of superherois...smething you should never do because let face it, they are always going to lose over and over because superhero broke the law in almost every way posible.

And about wanda....well, is not just hulk, is the fact she join HYDRA, which as our good friend Skye(aka,daisy, aka quake, aka worldbreaker, aka how many nicknames and name is this girl is going to get) said, was made by "red skull a nazi, a big and fat nazi!" and that is how she got her powers, and then she used said power on tony which made him restart project Ultron, then she helped the robot into robbing Vibranium, put everyone in a awfull mental state and put Hulk into a rampage that may or may not killed someone.

And she sort just get away with it, and not just that, she power provoke another incident in another african city.

In the end is not the lact of acountability the most glaring thing here is that the movie seen to pretend it didnt happen at all.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#89680: Sep 27th 2018 at 4:54:03 PM

Well, then I have expected too much from AAA blockbuster of a giant media-entertainment conglomerate like Disney.
I'm sorry you expected too much from the same company that put out Cars 2 and The Lone Ranger.

The cops and the car, they were definitely crushed.
Eh, unless we actually see them crushed, they were totally alive.

Edited by alliterator on Sep 27th 2018 at 4:58:15 AM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#89681: Sep 27th 2018 at 4:55:29 PM

The cops and the car, they were definitely crushed.

Not the car too! That was my favorite character. sad

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
MedusaStone Since: Jan, 2015
#89682: Sep 27th 2018 at 7:35:59 PM

Okay. I usually don't say anything about Wanda, because it's a minefield. But fuck it; why shouldn't I express myself like everyone else? I have two things I'm going to say: 1) anyone saying Wanda atoning for her actions by joining the Avengers isn't good enough and she should be in jail better be saying the same thing about the Black Widow and Gamorah. Because the fact is, they both have a lot more blood on their hands than she does.

2) Unless they can tell me exactly where cannon mcu material states that the Maximoff twins knew before they signed the paperwork authorizing themselves to be used as test subjects that they were dealing with HYDRA and not some nebulous 'government agency', people need to stop using the "Wanda joined HYDRA willingly and that proves she was a terrible person all along" argument. I seriously, seriously doubt HYDRA would've risked identifying themselves to anyone that wasn't already under their direct and total control, especially since this would've been years before the Big Reveal in 2014.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#89683: Sep 27th 2018 at 7:43:44 PM

[up]Two things about it:

Neither Gamora or Black widow try to pretend to be nice people in general, Gamora at least have the excuse of being rise by Thanos and she try her best to stop him, while Natasha drive her angst of being the morally grey of her team...and in fact some have complain of having the two deeds never show.

and with the second...really? are you going to tell me the twins never suspect they were HYDRA? i think they new, just didnt care because of their hate bonner.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#89684: Sep 27th 2018 at 7:50:07 PM

I think it’s important to remember that we don’t see Natasha or Gamora being evil/kicking puppies on screen. Wanda, on the other hand...

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#89685: Sep 27th 2018 at 7:53:55 PM

[up]Yeah, in the case of Natasha is even worst because we dont know nothing about her past except some mention loki did about a hostial of a church I think.

I mean, blame wheedon all you want, but the dude at least remenber the girl have some past, today she is pretty much a hero with some vague pass.

I blame the lack of her movie because of it.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#89686: Sep 27th 2018 at 7:54:07 PM

Well at least she suffered.

The world hates her, she's a criminal, & the love of her life just died right in front of her.

Karma is not totally nonexistent there.

[up] She has already made peace with whatever she did in her past & is now making up for it, it was partly why she sided with Tony.

Hell that was what she pledged to do, as seen in Winter Soldier.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 27th 2018 at 7:59:29 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#89687: Sep 27th 2018 at 8:18:53 PM

Listen. This is why I say, just put Tony and Wanda in a room, and kick their asses forever.

Hell, take every person who's ever screwed up in the MCU or done something wrong and do just that, no matter how small.

No forgiveness, no second chances, everyone pays for everything.

That way, nobody complains about someone not getting their ass kicked for whatever they do.

One Strip! One Strip!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#89688: Sep 27th 2018 at 8:27:30 PM

I think what absolves Black Widow and Gamora to me more is that they both show awareness of their crimes and are motivated by their desire to atone. Wanda hadn't expressed any guilt over what she did under Ultron, nor has stated any desire to atone.

Additionally, Black Widow and Gamora were both legally cleared by the governments they turned themselves in to. There's been no indication Wanda received the same thing. She may be free simply because of being sheltered by a team of vigilantes.

Lastly, Widow and Gamora turned because of guilt over their murders. Wanda, and her brother Pietro, turned because Ultron's plan would cause their own deaths.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#89689: Sep 27th 2018 at 8:30:21 PM

[up]

And the deaths of millions other people don't forget.

Actually, yeah, lets forget it.

So, when Wanda comes back, we throw her, Tony and I guess Quill in jail in some dark dimension to suffer for everything they've done forever.

And then, maybe we can stop talking about this again and again.

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#89690: Sep 27th 2018 at 8:33:12 PM

Here's the thing about Iron Man and the Hulk's fight.

You can irrationally blame the Hulk for the destruction and potential loss of life that this battle caused. Banner himself certainly does. One could try to extrapolate from this that the Avengers were irresponsible in bringing him to Johannesburg.

You could super irrationally blame Stark for the destruction and potential loss of life that this battle caused. One could make the argument that he should have devised better safeguards than building a big robot suit and throwing down in the middle of a populated city. Smartest man on Earth can't come up with anything better than a fist-fight with a Person of Mass Destruction in a populated area?

Or you could rationally blame Maximoff for the destruction and potential loss of life that this battle caused. It was her mind-altering powers that set Banner off on this rampage in the first place. She deliberately and knowingly put countless people's lives in danger for the sake of the crimes she was committing.

You could also peg the blame somewhere in the middle and say that Maximoff was a dangerous criminal and the Avengers should have been more responsible in their handling of her.

But no matter which way you slice it, it doesn't really matter because all three of them are Avengers.

Johannesburg is pretty much the perfect example to make Ross's point, and that's why it never comes up through the entire film. The writers don't want Ross to have a perfect example. For the sake of letting Steve's side have a point in the first place, they keep the conversation on collateral damage and away from the various crimes that Avengers have deliberately committed.

Civil War was written in a universe where the worst thing any Avenger has ever done is fail to always save 100% of civilian lives. Even Stark's angst about Ultron is carefully framed to pull attention away from "I built the thing that killed those people." Instead, the conversation is, "We totally weren't paying attention to all the people that were dying while we were having awesome superhero battles against Ultron's forces."

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 27th 2018 at 9:37:25 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#89691: Sep 27th 2018 at 8:51:39 PM

So...we should just blame Joss Whedon instead then?

Alright, throw him in the hole as well. Everyone responsible for everything gets tossed in the ass whupping hole.

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#89692: Sep 27th 2018 at 8:57:03 PM

And Rob, since you're responsible for this idea that would cause so much pain and suffering, you go in the hole too.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#89693: Sep 27th 2018 at 8:59:09 PM

...

<Grabs a bat>

Whelp, I hope everybody is ready.

You also realize that half the people on this board would need to go in that hole by you logic right.

That's a lot of faces to hit with a bat. Don't worry, I'm up to it.

One Strip! One Strip!
XJTordecai Watch the seventh wave Since: Jun, 2013
Watch the seventh wave
#89694: Sep 27th 2018 at 9:02:06 PM

Only one I'd throw in the shithole is Thanos.

On my wave, passing oooooooon
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#89695: Sep 27th 2018 at 9:04:43 PM

Nah there’s also Ego, Skull, Killian, Cross, that southern guy from Ant-Man and Wasp, etc. etc.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
JRads47 Since: Nov, 2014
#89696: Sep 27th 2018 at 9:06:20 PM

So many little ones in the shithole.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#89697: Sep 27th 2018 at 9:06:58 PM

*cracks neck*

I'm a black belt in Taekwondo. I can take you.

XJTordecai Watch the seventh wave Since: Jun, 2013
Watch the seventh wave
#89698: Sep 27th 2018 at 9:10:24 PM

Okay, fair. Well, three of those guys are dead and Burch is in jail. So Thanos and Red Skull in that case.

On my wave, passing oooooooon
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#89699: Sep 27th 2018 at 9:14:56 PM

There’s also Ross.

And the rogue mage asshole from Dr. Strange.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 27th 2018 at 9:14:56 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#89700: Sep 27th 2018 at 9:31:44 PM

Neither Gamora or Black widow try to pretend to be nice people in general
How do you define "pretend to be nice people"? Why is Wanda "pretending" to be nice, but Black Widow and Gamora aren't? They act pretty much just like she acts.

Gamora at least have the excuse of being rise by Thanos and she try her best to stop him
And Wanda's parents were killed by a Stark missile. Her entire childhood was defined by the death of her parents.

are you going to tell me the twins never suspect they were HYDRA?
The current day Hyra looked a lot different from the 1940s Hydra - they might have been suckered in by their rhetoric about changing lives/the world. After all, once again, Wanda and Pietro were literally raised during wartime, their parents killed when they were young and nobody else helped them.

I think it’s important to remember that we don’t see Natasha or Gamora being evil/kicking puppies on screen. Wanda, on the other hand...
Exactly: we hear that Nat has "red in her ledger," but we don't see it. If we saw some of the horrible things she did, would people like her the same way? Or do people hate Wanda simply because of what she did to Bruce?

She has already made peace with whatever she did in her past & is now making up for it, it was partly why she sided with Tony.
She betrayed Tony and sided with Cap.

I think what absolves Black Widow and Gamora to me more is that they both show awareness of their crimes and are motivated by their desire to atone.
When has Gamora showed awareness for crimes? She's sorry about what happened with Nebula, but that's about it.

Wanda, and her brother Pietro, turned because Ultron's plan would cause their own deaths.
That is very untrue: Wanda was horrified because his plans involved the death of millions. She signed up to get revenge on Stark, not to kill loads of people.

Johannesburg is pretty much the perfect example to make Ross's point, and that's why it never comes up through the entire film.
Which is why I believe nobody died during it. It would have been the perfect incident for Ross to bring up — "Hey, that woman right there that just messed up and killed a bunch of people already killed a bunch of people using the Hulk!" — but he doesn't, which leads me to believe that nobody died. It's actually really easy to figure out — the Hulk shows up in Johannesburg and Stark shows up behind him almost immediately. The fight destroys a lot of property, but we don't actually see any casualties and the one building that's destroyed is deliberately shown as empty. The only reason that people don't want to believe nobody died is because of "realism" — which is a silly thing to think about in this world of magic and space gods.


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