TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Marvel Cinematic Universe

Go To

Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#89651: Sep 27th 2018 at 12:47:46 PM

The accords in Ao S are deeply problematic too. No, it is not just "sign here until we call you", it's "sign here and no matter if you even want to be an agent or not, we will tag you and constantly track you". And what happens? The Watchdog hack into the list and then use it to kill Inhumans (and remember, not all Inhuman abilities are even good for attacking or defending)

You really don't have to look that deep into history to understand why putting people on lists is a terrible idea.

The thing with the accords is that while the basic principle that The Avengers can't just constantly operate outside the law and need a set of rules is completely correct, the accords itself are deeply flawed because they don't provide a proper framework for them. Instead they are basically taking away the rights of the Avengers without offering any kind of legal protection in return. Quite the opposite in fact. It becomes clear pretty much immediately that the Accords in their current form are basically a free for all for the people in charge (in this case the US government) to do with powered people whatever they want. Tag them, lock them away, kill them on sight, all without due process.

And that is NOT okay in ANY reality. Which is exactly the reason why in the end Tony shuts Ross away and basically refuses to look for the other Avengers. And why Rhodey is doing the same in Infinity war.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#89652: Sep 27th 2018 at 12:50:08 PM

[up][up]The Hulk's rampage didn't cause any casualties. If it had, Secretary Ross would have used it as one of the examples of the Avengers causing deaths.

Edited by alliterator on Sep 27th 2018 at 12:49:56 PM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#89653: Sep 27th 2018 at 1:03:09 PM

[up]That's not really an argument given that he also didn't mention Wanda's very recent actions during the incident with Rumlow. His examples seemed very randomly picked. New York, Sokovia and Washinton were hardly the only instances of civilian collateral damage happening around the Avengers.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
FictionAddiction Lurker turned Troper from My Home, duh Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Singularity
Lurker turned Troper
#89654: Sep 27th 2018 at 1:09:55 PM

Do we even know what the exact legal content of the Accords are? All we have are biased second-hand accounts of the script, but no hard citation of it. It's like discussing a book in school without any person in class, who actually have read it. This only leads to wild speculations.

I am a simple man, I like stories therefore I dissect and discuss them.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#89655: Sep 27th 2018 at 1:11:42 PM

Yeah, one side is all 'It's only to keep superpowered individuals from doing collateral damage!' while the other is like 'They are putting us in camps next!' Truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
FictionAddiction Lurker turned Troper from My Home, duh Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Singularity
Lurker turned Troper
#89656: Sep 27th 2018 at 1:13:50 PM

[up] So Schrödinger's Accords?

I am a simple man, I like stories therefore I dissect and discuss them.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#89657: Sep 27th 2018 at 1:15:46 PM

I don't think that it matters what the actual wording is, what matters is how they get implemented. Though, notable, a lot of things which come true later on are exactly the same concerns Team Cap voices in the discussion. Same for the concerns Team Tony voices, btw. That's exactly what makes the movie so good, that everyone is in principle right.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#89658: Sep 27th 2018 at 1:23:16 PM

That's not really an argument given that he also didn't mention Wanda's very recent actions during the incident with Rumlow.
It was Wanda's actions that were the reason they were meeting in the first place. He was listing every incident where the Avengers or Cap caused/were adjacent to a large number of casualties. And he wouldn't have left out the Hulk, since Ross hates the Hulk, unless there were no casualties.

Edited by alliterator on Sep 27th 2018 at 1:22:42 AM

FictionAddiction Lurker turned Troper from My Home, duh Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Singularity
Lurker turned Troper
#89659: Sep 27th 2018 at 1:40:40 PM

[up][up] Nice deflection, but you are not addressing my point. The implementation of law depends on the spirit or the letter of the law. You are suggesting that we should ignore the existence of the letter completely and only discuss the spirit. But you can not argue for any spirits if you do not have any letter to derive it from in the first place. That is why actual legal texts are so convoluted and boring to read because every word has been meticulously chosen to avoid confusion.

I can also say that all parties involved were wrong and the whole movie is bad. But that is not true of course.

I think this Civil War fuss is just the result of my biggest complaint towards the MCU, the lack of Worldbuilding, especially concerning international relations. I mean in the first Avengers and Captain America: Sons of Liberty SHIELD was under the jurisdiction of a so-called World Security Council, what the hell does that even mean? An US American Intelligent Service following orders from foreign leaders?

Edited by FictionAddiction on Sep 27th 2018 at 10:44:17 AM

I am a simple man, I like stories therefore I dissect and discuss them.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#89660: Sep 27th 2018 at 1:42:53 PM

[up][up]Yeah right, so (just on top of my head) the fight between Abomination and Hulk left no casualties behind? Ivan Vanko's attack on the race and his later attack on the exhibition (during which Tony fought with him) ? Thor's fight with the Destroyer? The dimension jumping during the fight with Malekith?

Ross wans't even done with his demonstration, Cap told him that the shown footage was enough and he stopped showing the pictures.

Edited by Forenperser on Sep 27th 2018 at 10:42:24 AM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#89661: Sep 27th 2018 at 1:44:49 PM

Yeah right, so (just on top of my head) the fight between Abomination and Hulk left no casualties behind? Ivan Vanko's attack on the race and his later attack on the exhibition (during which Tony fought with him) ? Thor's fight with the Destroyer? The dimension jumping during the fight with Malekith?
As far as I remember: 1) yep, no casualties, 2) Iron Man and War Machine specifically make sure no civilians got hurt, 3) Thor's fight with the Destroyer only killed him (and he came back immediately), and 4) I don't remember anyone specifically dying due to Malekith's dimension hopping.

Ross wans't even done with his demonstration, Cap told him that the shown footage was enough and he stopped showing the pictures.
Again, Ross hates the Hulk. He even brought up the fact that they didn't know where Banner was and called him a "nuke," completely dehumanizing him. If there were casualties due to the Hulk's rampage, he would have used them first.

Edited by alliterator on Sep 27th 2018 at 1:45:45 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#89662: Sep 27th 2018 at 1:49:51 PM

Then you remember it wrong. Before Abomination turned his attention to Hulk, he was throwing civilians around like ragdolls, thrashing military vehicles and what not. You also didn't adress the race, where Ivanov split several race cars in HALF, with them exploding. No way any driver survives that. Hulk's and Tony's fight continued through several populated buildings. I think it's extremely unlikely that nobody got killed there. Reason Ross didn't bring it up? Because Banner wasn't even there. And he already mentioned him beforehand, comparing him to a nuke.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#89663: Sep 27th 2018 at 1:51:21 PM

Oh, and Ross also mentioned in the Hulk's own movie that he was directly responsible for the deaths of several military personell. He didn't bring that up during the CW conversation either. Strange ;)

Edited by Forenperser on Sep 27th 2018 at 10:53:51 AM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#89664: Sep 27th 2018 at 1:55:17 PM

Before Abomination turned his attention to Hulk, he was throwing civilians around like ragdolls
Ah, then he probably didn't bring that up because he knew that Blonsky was working for him.

You also didn't adress the race, where Ivanov split several race cars in HALF, with them exploding.
I was talking about the fight at the end of the movie, not the race. But again, he can't blame Stark for something Whiplash did.

Hulk's and Tony's fight continued through several populated buildings.
And that's where you are remembering it wrong: it was one building and Tony made specifically sure that it was empty. Hence: no casualties.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#89665: Sep 27th 2018 at 2:38:45 PM

I didn't really see it as Stark getting away with the Ultron debacle. Well, maybe legally, but personally he carried a shit ton of guilt, which was the main factor why he supported the Accords. He never wanted anybody to make the same mistakes he did.

And yeah, what Wanda did is much more 'getting away with something', given that she willingly supported Ultron and caused tons of damages and probably casualties as well with her mind raping of the Hulk.

Welp! Someone played the Wanda card. I now officially declare that we should kill everyone for everything.

It's the Only Way to Be Sure.

One Strip! One Strip!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#89667: Sep 27th 2018 at 2:57:58 PM

There’s a part during the Hulk’s rampage in AOU where he rips open a car, and the scene cuts away just as he reaches the driver. That driver is definitely dead.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#89668: Sep 27th 2018 at 3:01:54 PM

Eh, a movie can hardly add a complete accord and read it out, with all the legalese in it. Star Wars has already proven why this is a bad idea for a movie.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#89669: Sep 27th 2018 at 3:09:03 PM

I don't recall Star Wars ever reading out any decrees in full.

Come to thimk of it, Pirates of the Caribbean made a running thing out of at least one person reading out a governmental decree in full at least Once Per Movie.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#89670: Sep 27th 2018 at 3:12:24 PM

There’s a part during the Hulk’s rampage in AOU where he rips open a car, and the scene cuts away just as he reaches the driver. That driver is definitely dead.
Didn't the scene cut away because Iron Man interrupted him?

FictionAddiction Lurker turned Troper from My Home, duh Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Singularity
Lurker turned Troper
#89671: Sep 27th 2018 at 3:15:39 PM

[up][up][up] You mean a conventional action blockbuster can not do it. And this why the issue is so vague and formless, the real reason the conflict exist is to excuse the action figure slug-fest and nothing else, the movie even drops this plot half in for some "You killed my mother" vs "He is my boyfriend" drama.

I am a simple man, I like stories therefore I dissect and discuss them.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#89672: Sep 27th 2018 at 3:17:36 PM

I mean, the Accords were always an excuse for Hero Vs. Hero fights. That's was kind of the whole original crossover in a nutshell.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#89673: Sep 27th 2018 at 3:31:16 PM

Didn't the scene cut away because Iron Man interrupted him?

(At the 0:52 mark) Hulk attacks a vehicle with two occupants, grabbing and throwing out the passenger. When cops shoot at him, Hulk kicks a car into them.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Sep 27th 2018 at 3:30:52 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#89675: Sep 27th 2018 at 3:43:41 PM

Hulk attacks a vehicle with two occupants, grabbing and throwing out the passenger.
So he clearly doesn't kill them? I mean, when you said "cut away" I assumed it didn't show what happened, but it does: he tosses them aside. So they are still alive. (Same with the cops.)


Total posts: 186,763
Top