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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#89601: Sep 27th 2018 at 5:40:31 AM

I'm solidly on Cap's side, here, although honestly the problem seems more one of Poor Communication Kills. Did Cap (or Bucky for that matter) ever try to explain to Tony that he was brainwashed? It's all so mindlessly cliche.

"Tony, I killed your parents, but I did it while mind controlled. I'm sorry for everything that's happened and I hope that you can someday let me try to atone."

"Tony, I should have told you what I knew, but Bucky is my best friend and I'm trying to save his life. He's been tortured and brainwashed by Hydra and he needs help."

I mean, duh. At that point, if Tony still wants to flip out and murder Bucky, it's completely on him. But no, they just have a macho face-off where nobody wants to admit any sort of fault, because the script calls for a final showdown.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 27th 2018 at 8:43:25 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#89602: Sep 27th 2018 at 5:52:59 AM

The writers themselves admitted if Tony had been told about what really happened to his parents, it would have taken a relatively short time to process it.

Tony's reaction was a result of the truth being revealed to him in a way that was designed to provoke a negative response and the stress of everything that had happened in the past few days.

Edited by windleopard on Sep 27th 2018 at 5:53:45 AM

Cross (Don’t ask)
#89603: Sep 27th 2018 at 5:53:53 AM

Implication is that Tony already knew about the brainwashing. However Bucky still views himself as guilty despite him being controlled, as well as Tony getting the info in one of the worst ways and at a really bad time.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#89604: Sep 27th 2018 at 5:58:28 AM

Oh, I completely get it. The reveal is set up precisely so that Tony will get hit by it when he's at his most volatile emotional peak. That's the villain's entire plan, after all. I'm just saying that Cap and Bucky are as much at fault here for hiding the truth from him for so long.

In a way, the Civil War is a subplot designed to make sure that Tony and Steve don't sit down and have a heart-to-heart before the climax.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 27th 2018 at 9:01:30 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Cross (Don’t ask)
#89605: Sep 27th 2018 at 6:07:59 AM

Would Steve tell him though? Depending on when he figured it out, there should of been plenty of opportunities to tell Tony. Had Zemo not dropped the bomb chances are no one would have came out with it.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#89606: Sep 27th 2018 at 6:19:28 AM

I definitely agree with that.

Steve might not have told him either: he did admit that he kept the secret for selfish reason.

While Zemo's plan wasn't poor, it was ultimately his timing that let it work. Had he launched this little plot at any other point, it likely wouldn't have totally shattered the Avengers the way is.

Cap and Tony practically helped him when you really think about it.

One Strip! One Strip!
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#89607: Sep 27th 2018 at 6:19:41 AM

Well, that's the crux of Tony's problem with Steve: he could have told him but chose not to. That's what he refuses to forgive. I can't say I completely blame him, but as I said, I'm still on Steve's side. Tony has been nothing but a dick throughout the whole episode.

Edited to add: On the other hand, Tony's clearly been suffering from PTSD for several films and nobody has helped him in the least, because There Are No Therapists. Not being in one's right mind can certainly impair decision-making.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 27th 2018 at 9:42:46 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#89608: Sep 27th 2018 at 7:25:01 AM

Yeah, Tony was definitely in the wrong there. It was a bout of temporary insanity brought on by finding out that his parents' killer was standing three feet away from him and that Steve had concealed that fact for the entire time that he's been on his "BUT BUCKY" kick. His position is sympathetic, but wrong.

YMMV on the Accords issue - both regarding which side is right and also which side is more of a dick - but that final confrontation is a lot simpler. Team Stark and Team Rogers have their supporters, but there's basically no one on Team "Shove Tank Missiles Down Bucky's Throat Until He Explodes".

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 27th 2018 at 8:25:10 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
FictionAddiction Lurker turned Troper from My Home, duh Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Singularity
Lurker turned Troper
#89610: Sep 27th 2018 at 8:46:55 AM

I am more on Team CGI's (Iron Man) side concerning the Accords, but I am more biased towards regulation of PMCs due to Metal Gear's personal influence on me. I know that people like to meme about "Punished Cap", but Team Stuntmen's (Captain America) position does sound like "Soldiers Without Borders" to me, at least in concept.

By the way, when I suggested Gurren Lagann as next anime homage, I was totally serious. Thanos is like the amalgamation of all antagonist in TTGL. He has the impressive physique of Lordgenome, the fatalistic beliefs of the village chief, the feelings of guilt of Rossiu and, of course, the oppressive motivation of the Anti-Spirals.

I am a simple man, I like stories therefore I dissect and discuss them.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#89611: Sep 27th 2018 at 8:57:53 AM

[up] Both sides are intended to be seen as right to a certain degree.

  • The Stark team has a point that supers running around unaccountably creates a major risk to the world.
  • The Rogers team has a point that subjecting them to bureaucratic oversight prevents them from saving lives.

That said, of all the things that the Avengers get blamed for, most of them are not their fault, or are twisted into looking like their fault. About the only event that's unquestionably on them is Ultron, and that had nothing to do with supers and everything to do with Stark being a dick.

If anyone's to blame for the Accords in the first place, it's the one person who is unreservedly in favor of them. Hypocritical much?

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#89612: Sep 27th 2018 at 9:08:05 AM

Rogers' fears of bureaucratic oversight is never validated by the film. If anything, there's more evidence that a lack of oversight is more of a danger to peoples' lives (see the disaster in Lagos.)

Tony supporting the Accords would be hypocrisy if not for the fact that Tony, unlike Steve, is actually aware that he isn't perfect and that the Avengers need to be held accountable or they're no better than the villains they fight.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#89613: Sep 27th 2018 at 9:47:00 AM

[up] Whut? Yeah, BS. You have a government wanting to kill an innocent man (and Po W) on sight, you have the same government putting people into prison without due process and you have the man in charge of the Avengers just ignoring every sign that there might be a serious danger brewing because it doesn't fit into his political agenda.

Not to mention that apparently the accords aren't even applied consistently. When Black Panther hunts someone down the street to kill someone it is apparently okay in hindsight because he happens to be a king, but if Cap is there to protect lives, it is a crime. Hell, even Tony ignores the accords the moment they are hindering him too much. Which shows how ineffectiv they actually are.

And regarding Tony and Steve: This is a typical situation in which neither meant to do something bad, and yet both ended up hurt.

Edited by Swanpride on Sep 27th 2018 at 9:48:31 AM

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#89614: Sep 27th 2018 at 10:14:46 AM

Speaking of Tony's mental state, I'm curious to see how bad it's going to be at the beginning of Avengers 4? I mean his worst case scenario, the thing that he's dreaded since the Battle for NY, the thing that gave him PTSD, the thing that he created Ultron to try and prevent, etc. In the end, it came and despite all of his work and preparations, he couldn't stop it. Not only that, but the only reason that he himself didn't die is that Dr. Strange gave the baddie what he wanted specifically so that he wouldn't kill Tony. And on top of all of that, he had to watch the kid that he had bonded with and genuinely tried to help and keep safe, die right in his arms.

The poor guy is going to be a wreck I imagine.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#89615: Sep 27th 2018 at 10:17:25 AM

He's liable to be completely consumed by obsession, even moreso than he already was.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#89616: Sep 27th 2018 at 10:19:46 AM

1) As far as they knew, he was guilty and could have been turned into the Winter Soldier again. And I don't think the people in that tunnel Steve collapsed or the guy Barnes tossed of a motorcycle see Steve as a savior. And consider that Rhodes was able to capture Barnes without bloodshed and the Gs 9 team only became aggressive after Steve and Barnes attacked them.

2) I don't know what it's like where you come from, but people tend to get thrown in prison when they do stuff like trash an airport, obstruct justice, aid and abet a wanted fugitive. There is zero evidence they are there without due process. That Scott got merely two year house arrest after the idiocy he pulled only further invalidates all the paranoia over the Accords.

3) It's called priorities. Just because there might be another criminal involved doesn't mean Steve's other crimes suddenly disappear. Had Steve not made such a mess in Bucharest and then aided Barnes' escape again in Berlin, he'd have had an easier time convincing them something else was up.

4) By that logic, we shouldn't have any laws at all because of the number of times people break them and get away with it. Citing T'Challa and Tony's disregard for the law does not invalidate the Accords. It also invalidates Steve's unfounded paranoia that the Accords will stop them from saving lives. Again, there's more evidence that lack of oversight does more harm than good. That Tony and T'Challa are at their most dangerous to innocent people when they aren't obeying the law is not a good argument that the law is pointless.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#89617: Sep 27th 2018 at 10:31:01 AM

Also as I've said before, Cap "going it alone because it feels right" and Tony going along with it as a favor to Falcon, is what let Zemo win in the end, because his plan NEEDED it to just be those three there in order to work.

MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#89618: Sep 27th 2018 at 10:40:01 AM

Infinity War continues to show how wrong the Accords as written are when with threat of an alien invasion, the Accords are more concerned with having Rhodes arrest Rogers and co. instead of dealing with the alien threat.

The Accords are very flawed from their very inception, and Civil War all through to Infinity War its flaws are showcased.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#89619: Sep 27th 2018 at 10:47:07 AM

[up]Why shouldn't they have been arrested? They don't stop being fugitives because the world is being invaded.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#89620: Sep 27th 2018 at 10:48:28 AM

As far as they knew, he was guilty and could have been turned into the Winter Soldier again.
Because that's always a good excuse not to follow due process.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#89621: Sep 27th 2018 at 10:54:31 AM

They had video evidence placing him at the scene of a recent crime and his previous crimes were known. Going after him with authorisation to kill him if he proved hostile is not a violation of due process.

MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#89622: Sep 27th 2018 at 10:59:17 AM

[up][up] Yeah, I'm done with this conversation.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#89623: Sep 27th 2018 at 11:00:54 AM

On the rooftop, he wasn't hostile towards anybody and they shot at him. Basically: "running away" =/= "hostile."

Also, "video evidence" that proved false. There should have been a full investigation, but there wasn't, because everyone was in a rush to arrest/kill him.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#89624: Sep 27th 2018 at 11:01:13 AM

Ehhhh Cap did try to told him that it was hydra fault and is response was MOVE!, is easy to said in that moment he was in pretty much in crazy batman mode, just one step from MY PARENT ARE DEAAAAAAAAD!.

" That's the villain's entire plan"

You see, this the part I reaaaaaaaally call bullshit because zemo must create a plan to deliver the information in the exact circunstance in the exact moment.

There is not way in hell he could do that and in truth he didnt, the plot did it for him and he call it a day.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#89625: Sep 27th 2018 at 11:07:17 AM

[up][up]They shot at him after he'd attacked the team. At one point, he even smashed a cinder block into a guy's chest.


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