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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#89401: Sep 21st 2018 at 3:07:04 PM

The Holocaust isn't simply Magneto's story. It was a real life event that to this day still affects a lot of people and deserves to be treated with much more respect than a super villain's Freudian Excuse.

Go on and remove the Holocaust backstory from Magneto and see how well that goes over.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#89402: Sep 21st 2018 at 3:08:37 PM

Avengers Arena is basically what I was thinking of. It and Avengers Academy in general would be great adaptations: especially given the place the universe is in right now.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 21st 2018 at 3:08:09 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#89403: Sep 21st 2018 at 3:43:10 PM

[up][up]Yes there will be complaints. I'm not blind to that. I just don't care.

Edited by windleopard on Sep 21st 2018 at 3:52:02 AM

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#89404: Sep 21st 2018 at 3:43:19 PM

Wasn't Avengers Arena agreed to have a horrible, pure shockvalue-riden mess?

Also, to answer wild-something's argument, I'll just say this: Killmonger.

Actually, I do have something else to say: when Claremont turned Magneto into a Holocaust survivor, he did treated the whole deal with respect. Remember, he turned the X-Men into the cultural cornerstone of comics they are today.

If later writers weren't as skllied, well, that's hardly his fault, is it?

The fact it started the tragedy that was the Dark Age of Comics never made Watchmen a bad story, after all.

Edited by HailMuffins on Sep 21st 2018 at 7:43:54 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#89405: Sep 21st 2018 at 3:47:50 PM

I don't recall Claremont treating the Holocaust origin with any respect. Yes he made the X-Men popular. But times have changed since Claremont was the main writer of the X-Men.

Need I remind you this is the guy who brought us the infamous moment of Kitty Pryde using the N word.

Yes Killmonger's backstory was done respectfully. My point is Magneto's was not.

Another thing? Killmonger and M'Baku show you don't need to stick entirely to the comics to get a good character on the screen.

Edited by windleopard on Sep 21st 2018 at 3:51:13 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#89406: Sep 21st 2018 at 3:49:44 PM

I mean by that logic no villain should have any connection to real world events.

As long as they are treated with nuance & good-writing I don’t see any issue.

Even then this is stating Magneto never had any nuance at all which is false.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 21st 2018 at 3:50:12 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#89407: Sep 21st 2018 at 3:54:41 PM

Okay, one: that is really taking the story out of its historical context.

Two, if you think Claremont didn't treat the Holocaust with respect, fine, that is your prerrogative. But I do think you should point out how, otherwise this will turn into a useless back-and-forth pingball match.

Three, all of this ignores that Magneto's backstory has already been adapted to cinema. And really well done, at that: his characterization is one of the few consistent bright spots in Fox's X-Men.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#89408: Sep 21st 2018 at 4:00:14 PM

Okay, one: that is really taking the story out of its historical context.

I know what the context is. Doesn't make it any less offensive.

Two, if you think Claremont didn't treat the Holocaust with respect, fine, that is your prerrogative. But I do think you should point out how, otherwise this will turn into a useless back-and-forth pingball match.

I already said how he did. By using it only as a Freudian Excuse for the villain and having it be the only acknowledgement of Magneto's Jewish heritage.

Three, all of this ignores that Magneto's backstory has already been adapted to cinema. And really well done, at that: his characterization is one of the few consistent bright spots in Fox's X-Men.

Exactly. It's been done before. Why not do something different? Isn't this what we wanted from the MCU having the X-Men?

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#89409: Sep 21st 2018 at 4:01:33 PM

The Magneto part of First Class was fan-frickin-tastic, and it alone proves that Magneto's Holocaust backstory is absolutely integral to his character.

I'm Jewish, and my great-grandparents came to America to escape the Holocaust, if anyone's going to be offended by Magneto's Holocaust backstory, it'd be me. I think it's a necessary part of his character. Magneto is not pure evil, his appeal comes from how he's a violent extremist but not a monster, and his and Xavier's friendship is extremely important for his characterization. Magneto's backstory as a Holocaust survivor is important because it explains his radical worldview and helps you sympathize with him.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#89410: Sep 21st 2018 at 4:07:00 PM

Yes there will be complaints. I'm not blind to that. I just don't care.

This seems to be getting into "I'll be offended on your behalf" territory, tbh.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#89411: Sep 21st 2018 at 4:07:11 PM

As I recall the Ultimate incarnation of Magneto is a Scrappy because there he is nothing more than a bigoted violent demented pyscho with none of the complexity the character generally exhibits.

Like he is one of the most beloved characters ever, why fix what ain't broken?

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 21st 2018 at 4:07:48 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#89412: Sep 21st 2018 at 4:08:17 PM

Yeah he's just a caricature. When the MCU is finally beginning to veer away from its problem of one dimensional villains, I don't know why anyone would want one of Marvel's most complex villains to be depicted in such a manner.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#89413: Sep 21st 2018 at 4:11:19 PM

I think that good writing can help a lot but eventually there can be too many Killmongers and Magnetos. If the only rep you have for victims of historical oppression is ones where they become violent killers, after a while it starts to look like quite sketchy. There deserves to be other Jewish / Romani heroes besides the one murder guy several times in a row.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#89414: Sep 21st 2018 at 4:12:17 PM

We need more Jewish/Romani heroes first then.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 21st 2018 at 4:14:41 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#89415: Sep 21st 2018 at 4:12:42 PM

Her name is Scarlet Witch.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#89416: Sep 21st 2018 at 4:15:15 PM

[up]Who is neither Jewish nor Romani in the films.

And her debut had her joining a neo nazi terrorist organization.

This seems to be getting into "I'll be offended on your behalf" territory, tbh.

Huh?

I think that good writing can help a lot but eventually there can be too many Killmongers and Magnetos. If the only rep you have for victims of historical oppression is ones where they become violent killers, after a while it starts to look like quite sketchy. There deserves to be other Jewish / Romani heroes besides the one murder guy several times in a row.

[tup][tup]

Edited by windleopard on Sep 21st 2018 at 4:18:50 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#89418: Sep 21st 2018 at 4:17:13 PM

[up] The motherfucking one & only.

Its Clobbering Time! [tup] [awesome]

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#89419: Sep 21st 2018 at 4:19:17 PM

I believe he prefers "The Ever Lovin' Blue-Eyed Thing".

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#89420: Sep 21st 2018 at 4:20:40 PM

Also Kitty Pride, Charles Xavier and Leonard Samson.

ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#89421: Sep 21st 2018 at 4:41:26 PM

The things is, Magneto is such a beautifully complex character that, if done just slightly wrong, could be completely ruined, specially with the social context that we have all around the world right now. And while the Holocaust is definitely one of the most iconic (to not say THE most iconic) displays of humanity's vindictiveness and overall assholeness, a different take on the character, with a background that brings social commentary as his original characterization would be interesting. Ergo the examples I've given.

Like, I'd be all for race-lifting him, or making him a member of the LGBTQ+ community (as a nod and tribute to his original actor). However, how would we characterize him as to not make him an offensive caricature, without resorting to foils or any other narrative tools to show that "BUT NOT ALL OF THEM ARE LIKE HIM".

I mean, Magneto's background is greatly important, but it's not the only thing that defines him as a character. But a new background would be a refreshing take and might be necessary to show how such a figure fits into our modern society.

Edited by ExplosiveLion on Sep 21st 2018 at 6:42:30 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#89422: Sep 21st 2018 at 4:49:53 PM

Really ya could just work with a successor of Magneto then.

I mean both him & Prof. X are pretty overused so I wouldn't mind them being Posthumous Characters in the modern day.

Fuck even make Wanda & Pietro his grandchildren instead of being his direct spawn.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 21st 2018 at 4:50:02 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#89423: Sep 21st 2018 at 5:01:08 PM

That's why I think we need a refreshing take on the characters. I could never see the X-men without Magneto and Xavier, but they have already been done for quite the number of movies now.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#89424: Sep 21st 2018 at 5:03:28 PM

Magneto has been an antihero rather than a villain at many points in his career. He's even been a member of the X-Men in many different lineups.

You could do that. "Magneto the one-dimensional murderterrorist who wants to murder all humanity" is a pretty dated version of the character, really.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 21st 2018 at 6:03:57 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#89425: Sep 21st 2018 at 5:05:00 PM

That's why we need to try to move on from them.

So much Wolverine, Magneto, Prof. X, Hell even Mystique.

Spider-Man: Homecoming worked magic with Vulture, VULTURE & Shocker was there of course.

Lets look deeper in the grand X-Mythology & pull out something that's never been done before.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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