TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Marvel Cinematic Universe

Go To

Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#88751: Aug 30th 2018 at 5:31:24 PM

You're probably reading too much into it. I didn't get that impression from that scene at all.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#88752: Aug 30th 2018 at 5:35:12 PM

It's quite possible. I mean I do know that Whedon has made comments indicating he quite likes Cap, and I will also acknowledge that it's been years since I've seen The Avengers, but my recollection is that there's never dialogue that indicates some kind of apology/indication that this was wrong. If anything, the film is more about Cap having to learn to respect Tony.

And more broadly, I don't think there's any dialogue between the two in either movie where Cap isn't the Butt-Monkey/wins the argument.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#88753: Aug 30th 2018 at 5:39:46 PM

I don't feel like Thor crying is necessarily at odds with what I was saying, broadly — but the first Avengers movie shoves aside some of the character work done in Thor's own movie to make him the Big Guy, and not much else. He's a Simple Man, with Big Emotions...! And, while I understand the need to pare down the characters in order for the original Avengers to do all the things it's got to do in a short runtime, I do think Thor gets hit with the brunt of it. It does that job well — none of this totally ruins the movie for me. But all the seeds are there for what eventually became AOU's many little problems, which all add up to the bigger problem that AOU feels out of step with the rest of the MCU.

Edited by Unsung on Aug 30th 2018 at 7:44:30 AM

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#88754: Aug 30th 2018 at 5:42:23 PM

[up][up]I mean, by the same token, Steve never apologizes to Tony for telling him he's not a hero.

They have their moment of understanding following Coulson's death.

In his conversation with Loki, Tony acknowledges that Steve does live up to his own legend.

Edited by ArthurEld on Aug 30th 2018 at 8:42:19 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#88755: Aug 30th 2018 at 5:47:16 PM

[up][up] Oh, you meant the first Avengers makes Thor a dumb jock, not the first Thor movie? Would agree with that assessment, I don’t think that Whedon understands Thor, and as such, his character suffers in Avengers and Ao U from being badly underwritten.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#88756: Aug 30th 2018 at 5:52:18 PM

Oh yeah, this was definitely about what he was like in the first Avengers, not the first Thor.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#88757: Aug 30th 2018 at 5:59:40 PM

@Arthur- Yeah, that’s a good point. I guess my next argument would be that Steve more clearly learns a lesson with Tony’s attempted Heroic Sacrifice. But fair enough.

Thinking about it, I think a lot of my Tony issues in the movies has to do with the combination of Whedon's love of World of Snark (which of course is true of the MCU as a whole) with an over-emphasis on the Avengers as troubled people who are constantly bickering. And it also strikes me that Tony as the sort of POV has to do with him functioning as sort of an Audience Surrogate who lampshades and scoffs at the more "comic booky elements". Which does make sense.

Re Thor, it is striking that Whedon has him both act surprisingly modern and savvy at times but also emphasizes his Medieval worldview and “dumbness”. But honestly that’s not really at odds with the great Ragnorak version of Thor.

Edited by Hodor2 on Aug 30th 2018 at 8:15:27 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#88758: Aug 30th 2018 at 6:37:43 PM

I don't think Whedon meant for Stark's jab at Rogers to be agreed with by the audience, but I do sort of see how one might get that impression. Mainly because of the difference in how their accusations are followed up on.

Rogers accuses Stark of being unwilling to make a personal sacrifice when push comes to shove. This sets up the scene of Stark carrying the nuke into the wormhole, "laying down on the wire" so to speak. Stark proves that yes, he is absolutely willing and able to sacrifice his life for the sake of humanity. He proves that he is every bit the hero that Rogers claimed he wasn't.

But Rogers never gets any similar scene. There is no big climactic moment where he proves that he's more than just the serum. There's no scene where Stark has to eat his words the way Rogers did in that moment. Thus, even though it almost certainly was not the intent, I can see how someone might come away feeling like the film vindicated Stark but never vindicated Rogers.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#88759: Aug 30th 2018 at 6:45:05 PM

That's a bit difficult, considering that you can't just take the serum away from him - that could be a potentially interesting plot, but there's no space for that here, and I don't think it would make much sense to put it in this movie anyway.

I suppose you could argue that his leadership skills prove that he's more than that, though.

Oh God! Natural light!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#88760: Aug 30th 2018 at 6:51:30 PM

The idea overall behind the accusation is that Steve was given something that allowed him to be sanctimonious rather than really having any high ground and... yeah... none of the movies past Avengers really give him much counterpoint to it. Not helped at all by Whedon generally portraying him as a sanctimonious stick in the mud. And while the Russo's more generously portray him as someone who really does have naturally virtuous instincts and determination but is too hostile towards compromise, that colored by Whedon's portrayal makes him look worse than he should.

The best counterpoint to it is in The First Avengers, where it shows where his ideology and will actually came from, but that doesn't stop the people who came in with Avengers. Or those who only see him as Captain America, not Steve Rogers.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#88761: Aug 30th 2018 at 6:57:04 PM

Steve needs a hug, dammit.

This is why I think the dynamic between Sam Wilson and Steve is so strong. Because Sam immediately relates to him as a veteran, not as an icon. That being said, there is still a little bit of hero worship.

Honestly, I wish we got to see more Steve during the films. He’s forced into Cap mode for most of his screen time in each film; when does he get to be Steve Rogers? Usually only when he’s giving a speech about The Right Thing To Do out of uniform, but still mostly in Cap mode. Let Steve have 1 minute of screen time sketching. Let him have something besides his team and his shield.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#88762: Aug 30th 2018 at 7:15:20 PM

Doesn't even have that last thing anymore

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#88763: Aug 30th 2018 at 7:18:16 PM

Doesn't have half of his team anymore either.

This song needs more love.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#88764: Aug 30th 2018 at 7:19:31 PM

Much lesser disagreement here and more understandable (since this was several years before Black Panther was released), but did anyone find it kinda funny/odd in Black Panther that Klaue is some sort of Osama Bin Laden-type master of hiding who has somehow evaded capture for decades, while in Age of Ultron, both the Avengers and the bad guys are able to find him in about 10 minutes, and he's not exactly well hidden (hell, he's running a massive arms dealing facility)?

Edited by comicwriter on Aug 30th 2018 at 7:19:28 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#88765: Aug 30th 2018 at 7:33:24 PM

...maybe T’chaka wasn’t trying that hard to find him? It would be pretty bad if he brought Klaue back for trial and Klaue told everyone what happened with N’Jobu...

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#88766: Aug 30th 2018 at 8:02:07 PM

Reminder: Whedon wrote parts of The First Avenger.

I don't think Whedon meant Tony's jab at Steve about "out of a bottle" to be taken seriously, because it's Steve's own retort that the story places greater priority on. Steve accuses Tony of not caring enough to risk his own life for others. So that the climax of the film, Tony is challenged to do just that. It's the theme that The Avengers chooses to follow up on, while Cap's altruism remains unchallenged. And ever since Tony's character has been defined by the consequences of that time he chose to dive into that unknown.

EDIT: Read too fast, but I guess I have the opposite conclusion from Tobias, that the story not following on the accusation toward Cap is proof of a lack of weight to it, not lending it more weight. It's arguably the same trait that eventually bit Age of Ultron in the rear, when the film raised a lot more accusations and then just ignored them all in the end.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Aug 30th 2018 at 8:05:08 AM

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#88767: Aug 30th 2018 at 8:17:10 PM

He's somehow a difficult-to-track-down and elusive criminal terrorist mastermind, yet he also has a soundcloud.

Also, another cool video.

My various fanfics.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#88768: Aug 30th 2018 at 8:33:28 PM

while in Age of Ultron, both the Avengers and the bad guys are able to find him in about 10 minutes

They searched very thoroughly across the entire "African Coast".

Which must've taken a very long time considering Africa has a lot of coast.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Aug 30th 2018 at 8:33:55 AM

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#88769: Aug 30th 2018 at 8:34:43 PM

One could say it's almost entirely coast.

My various fanfics.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#88770: Aug 30th 2018 at 9:06:11 PM

@Tobias- Good summation. Yeah, it's how the emotional beats are framed.

Which also reminds me of the kind of odd writing of the Steve/Tony conflict in AOU, where it initially seems like Tony wants to recreate Project Insight with Iron Man suits, which is legitimately a very questionable plan, but then does a Debate and Switch so that Steve is baselessly objecting to Tony's plans essentially because he's Wrong Genre Savvy and assumes that in this kind of situation Tony is going something wrong that he needs to object to.

Also, on the topic of MCU flaws and that note about Klaw, it reminded me both of how Strucker is wasted as comic relief in AOU and also how one of the flaws I see in Civil War (besides the assumption that leaks are good, especially when done by Russians) is the framing of Batroc as a murderous terrorist/hijacker. Definitely, a disservice to the character. I get that Batroc in his purest form is probably too ridiculous to adapt, but I think he makes for an interesting character. The way I understand Batroc is that he's in the mold of a certain kind of Gentleman Thief character that's been popular in Continental media (i.e. various expies of Fantomas, including Diabolik as well as similar characters like Space Pirate Cobra and Lupin III), but is placed in a big pond where instead of being ultra-competent, he's easily foiled.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#88771: Aug 30th 2018 at 9:19:58 PM

I'd like Batroc to come back as part of a Masters of Evil like team and constantly point out he has zero stake in destroying the Avengers and is Only in It for the Money.

He's somehow a difficult-to-track-down and elusive criminal terrorist mastermind, yet he also has a soundcloud.

On the other hand his threatening video addresses must be really catchy.

...maybe T’chaka wasn’t trying that hard to find him? It would be pretty bad if he brought Klaue back for trial and Klaue told everyone what happened with N’Jobu...

That's actually an extremely good idea. Headcanon accepted.

Edited by comicwriter on Aug 30th 2018 at 9:19:43 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#88772: Aug 30th 2018 at 9:24:01 PM

Indeed if Klaue was brought back alive he would most certainly spill the beans about what actually happened & I’m sure he’s smart enough to have irrefutable evidence.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#88773: Aug 30th 2018 at 9:30:51 PM

Would Klaue really know?

I mean, it's not like he was there. The only two witnesses were the ones who covered it up in the first place.

At best, he could make a guess, and who're people gonna believe: the asshole who looted their home, or their king.

One Strip! One Strip!
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#88774: Aug 30th 2018 at 9:32:15 PM

I’m pretty sure Klaue would know who his accomplice/inside informant was.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#88775: Aug 30th 2018 at 9:33:26 PM

I hope the MCU keeps on building up this whole secret history it's got going on with Agent Carter, Hank Pym, Carol Danvers and the rest. I would be up for a Klaue flashback, just to further reconcile the generic arms dealer Klaue with him having apparently been on the run from the Dora Milaje all this time. Possessing the outside world's only stock of vibranium for two straight decades probably opened up all kinds of doors, too.

[up]That and the king's own brother was in on this conspiracy. There could well have been others who would have at least wanted to investigate further if the claim was made — there are rivals to the Wakandan throne outside the royal family.

Edited by Unsung on Aug 30th 2018 at 10:47:02 AM


Total posts: 186,763
Top