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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#88651: Aug 28th 2018 at 5:52:04 AM

You're drastically oversimplifying the whole debate, and I say that as a Canadian who doesn't want to own a gun or want to need to own a gun. What you're talking about the NRA doing, that's what Ori is doing as well — he's not so much a hypocrite as an opportunist. He's courting controversy, rather than introducing policy that will actually pass, and the reason it won't pass is because a lot of the common sense gun regulations other countries might have can't really be implemented in the US in any coherent way. It's past that point. You're not just changing the law, but the culture and the Constitution.

Seriously, though. Karen Page believing she needs a single handgun to protect herself when she's actively investigating organized crime in New York is a far cry from the card-carrying NRA member who believes he has a God-given right to stockpile guns and ammo at a ranchhouse in the middle of nowhere — who in turn may very well be a law-abiding citizen compared to the actual professional criminals armed with contraband automatic weapons. The middle ground here is a lot wider than you're allowing yourself to see.

Edited by Unsung on Aug 28th 2018 at 7:00:04 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#88652: Aug 28th 2018 at 6:04:25 AM

[up] You just practically confirmed what I said. The episode is presented like the gun debate episode, but there is not actual gun debate happening, instead we get to see the talking points the NRA is comfortable with, which makes it easy to dismiss people who advocate gun control in real live.

Give me one example in this episode, just one, where someone says or it is made clear that gun control is NOT the same as banning guns altogether, and where a good argument for a reasonable gun control policy is made. Just one example.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#88653: Aug 28th 2018 at 6:28:26 AM

It's not presented as a gun debate episode. There's like, what, six minutes of gun debate, if that? And it deliberately steps lightly around the subject, which, given that this is The Punisher, is a statement unto itself. If this show, of all shows, wanted to get all gung-ho, rah-rah about the right to bear arms, it wouldn't need to be shy about it. I'm not saying the episode does a great job of being pro-gun control, but saying that that reticence puts it on the same level as NRA propaganda seems like a leap. Like, the fact that we have a version of the Punisher where you're not complaining that the entire series seems like a right-wing daydream, that speaks volumes to me.

I don't think there's a point where anyone other than Ori says that all gun control is banning guns, so I don't see why there needs to be a point where they say it isn't. Again, that's just not the message I got from the show — Karen doesn't seem like she'd be opposed to registering her firearm or being licensed to use it. She doesn't say that out loud, but she mostly seems to support the Daredevils and Frank Castles of the world insofar as they're helping the law get to where it needs to be, not supplanting it.

Edited by Unsung on Aug 28th 2018 at 7:40:56 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#88654: Aug 28th 2018 at 10:09:21 AM

[up] There is also no point at which anyone refutes what Ori said and corrects what gun control actually is. Ori is represented as the gun control advocate in the episode, and not only is he portrayed as entirely unsympathetic, the point he represents don't even have anything to do with an actual gun control discussion.

And it is not just "six minute of gun debate" because this is not just about what is said, but also what is shown. After all the talk about gun control they take away Karen's gun and promptly show her helpless until a helper with a gun shows up. That is basically the NRA's most idiotic argument put on screen.

Edited by Swanpride on Aug 28th 2018 at 10:10:28 AM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#88655: Aug 28th 2018 at 12:46:16 PM

That cuts both ways. You can't say that it's anti-gun control because it doesn't refute them enough, because the episode doesn't refute the pro-gun control side either.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#88656: Aug 28th 2018 at 5:14:58 PM

[up] It does. It acts as if gun control is about gun ownership and then puts Karen into a situation in which she is in danger but can't use her gun. The suggestion there is clear: she would have been safer if she hadn't been forced to surrender her gun. And in the end the situation is solved by a vigilante with a gun.

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#88657: Aug 28th 2018 at 5:32:24 PM

Ori clearly says he wants to take guns away from certain people, not all people.

I imagine most audience members would rather those certain people include the Timothy Mc Veigh Expy as opposed to Karen.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#88658: Aug 28th 2018 at 5:33:20 PM

[up][up]How does that refute gun control? Like yeah, she would have been safer if she'd had a gun on her in that moment, but only because the existing laws are already so loose that a mad bomber with a gun just walked right through the door. Saying the episode is pro-NRA propaganda is a huge reach. At its worst, the series as a whole is overly ambivalent, but Lewis Wilson embodies the kind of militia mindset you're accusing the show of harbouring, and this is the episode where he's at his most outright villainous.

Edited by Unsung on Aug 28th 2018 at 6:36:16 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#88659: Aug 28th 2018 at 5:34:57 PM

I didn't think there was anything wrong with Ori as a character because I am all for taking away everyone's guns, everywhere.

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#88660: Aug 28th 2018 at 5:38:41 PM

Ori's political views aren't that bad.

He still is a self aggrandizing liar though. Which is better than he was in the comics, when he was flat out corrupt and tied to the mafia. Frank ends up killing him.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#88662: Aug 28th 2018 at 7:55:21 PM

Hey cool, there’s a Gabe Jones one!

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#88663: Aug 28th 2018 at 9:18:09 PM

Heh. Just noticed that in the set for The Incredible Hulk, the Bruce Banner Emoji is very obviously Mark Ruffalo, not Ed Norton.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#88664: Aug 28th 2018 at 9:21:43 PM

Aw, no Spider-Man set. Also Laufey gets the short end of the villain stick, though admittedly he wasn't much of a villain.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 28th 2018 at 9:21:27 AM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#88665: Aug 28th 2018 at 10:04:13 PM

Stupid licensing.

I'm actually most surprised they actually included Quicksilver given how much of an Un-person he's been. Dead after one movie. Little to no merchandise (hell, he's the only Avenger not to get a Funko Pop bobblehead, and Funko makes toys of everything). Nobody ever mentions him in the subsequent films. Someone up top must really hate the character for some reason.

Edited by comicwriter on Aug 28th 2018 at 10:42:13 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#88666: Aug 28th 2018 at 10:53:54 PM

I'm convinced that, pre-Ultron, FOX and Disney made a deal that they could each use the Maximov twins, but only one of them can survive and be a major character in each franchise, and they couldn't use the same one.

HarpieSiren Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#88667: Aug 28th 2018 at 11:44:21 PM

Is that blue thing between Skurge and Black Panther supposed to be Korg?

XJTordecai Watch the seventh wave Since: Jun, 2013
Watch the seventh wave
#88668: Aug 28th 2018 at 11:44:39 PM

Well that's all of The Punisher under my belt. Great stuff all around. Frank's beatdowns of Rawlins and Russo are something I'm gonna remember for a while, I think.

[up]Yep.

Edited by XJTordecai on Aug 28th 2018 at 11:46:29 AM

On my wave, passing oooooooon
HarpieSiren Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#88669: Aug 28th 2018 at 11:47:45 PM

... Is Korg even blue? For some reason I don't remember him being

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#88670: Aug 28th 2018 at 11:49:22 PM

He's blue in the movie.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#88671: Aug 28th 2018 at 11:50:39 PM

[up][up][up]Rawlins' death is my favorite in the MCU.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#88672: Aug 29th 2018 at 12:55:38 AM

EDIT: NVM

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Aug 29th 2018 at 12:55:43 PM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#88673: Aug 29th 2018 at 4:28:53 AM

> I am all for taking away everyone's guns, everywhere.

I'll give you my potato gun when you pry (or take) it from my cold, clammy hands

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#88675: Aug 29th 2018 at 8:44:01 PM

That was amazing. Can we have that, like, now please? Or at least the DC version?


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