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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
If he gets a say in the matter I see Ronan as the dude that'd opt for a medium burn so that the further out victims know what's coming but can't escape
He's a drama guy
Forever liveblogging the AvengersI don't think that Ronan would have cared if he had died as long as he got his "revenge". He is a zealot after all. Or, to put it differently, a space terrorist.
And I actually don't mind any of this, I just think that the whole thing would have been more interesting if he had been a child of Thanos, too, because that would have shifted the interaction between him, Nebula and Gamora to a more equal and therefore more dynamic level.
Edited by Swanpride on Aug 20th 2018 at 3:49:12 AM
I recall when the story came out thinking that Gunn was being dickish in downplaying Perlman's role and I think the same now, even though I acknowledge that I like his contributions as well.
However, I really disagree that it was a bad choice to have Ronan rather than Thanos as the villain. Especially given the circumstances of Ronan's defeat, having Thanos in an active role wouldn't allow for his eventual terrifying Hero Killer role in Infinity War.
Also, I've liked about all of Thanos' Orcus on His Throne appearances is this element of Always a Bigger Fish. I've noted how The Other is pretty scary in The Avengers and towers over Loki and then Ronan towers over and effortlessly kills him in GOTG. And Thanos views Ronan in as much contempt as Ronan did The Other. Likewise, YMMV (because I can see how it could make his fearsomeness and Informed Ability), but I think it paradoxically helps sell Thanos' fearsomeness by having his proxies lose in multiple movies and him not really care, implying that they are a drop in the bucket compared to him. So Loki, Ultron, and Ronan's efforts were very consequential for them and their victims, but for Thanos, it was Tuesday.
Edit-
Yeah. That's my hope too, both because I want to see sympathetic Skrull characters, especially Hulkling, and because I've always been really uncomfortable with the idea of the Skrulls as victims of genocide in backstory but Always Chaotic Evil candidates for Guilt-Free Extermination War in the present.
Edited by Hodor2 on Aug 20th 2018 at 6:31:36 AM
I was under the impression that Ronan was just gonna touch down, unleash a life-ending grape-flavored wave of destruction across the planet's surface, then fly off on his merry way.
Anyway as far as first-movie villains go he's actually pretty good. The biggest obstacle first-movie villains encounter is having to share screentime with the hero's origins, which is why they're often flat and simplistic characters (and also why they usually share the same powerset, to avoid having two superpower expositions in the same film).
Ronan had to share a film with five new heroes, and managed to come out as a fairly believable and solid villain whose rather flat personality feels justified in-universe. It was a good choice to play him up as a singleminded unnegotiating Space Bin Laden.
Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Aug 20th 2018 at 10:18:10 AM
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!I agree and honestly think that the suicide bomber angle would have been a perfect fit for the character. Especially since, as others have noted, he's meant to evoke the fear of terrorism. The idea that he is absolutely planning to kill himself in order to exterminate Xandar fits perfectly into that.
But in order to make that work, they would need to develop it in the film. And they'd also need to cut that obnoxious scene where he rubs his balls in Thanos's face and then Thanos wanders off impotently to sulk.
I really hate that scene, because it perfectly reflects the relationship between Gunn's script and Perlman's. As I mentioned before, this scene is the reason that "Thanos does nothing" became a running joke.
Thanos, Perlman's intended villain for the film, postures at Ronan for a few seconds and then Ronan straight-up murders his right-hand attendant and screams about how Thanos is next. And that's it. End of discussion. It never comes up again.
Ronan's threat is the Final Word. Thanos f*cks off and never retaliates for the flagrant rebellion and murder of his guy, while Ronan struts away with Thanos's daughter who now thinks he's the hottest shit in the galaxy.
That whole scene is some Alpha Male dominance bullshit. It's Gunn's villain rubbing his balls all over Perlman's to establish how cool he is. Meanwhile, the fact that he gets away with it while Thanos tucks his tail and never pays him any sort of retribution serves to make Thanos look weak and useless.
Far moreso than losing a hard-fought battle in the climax would have.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 20th 2018 at 9:14:11 AM
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Thanos smacking him down would just been meeting alpha-male bullshit with more alpha-male bullshit, and I found Thanos' sheer indifference did more as a show of power than Ronan's petulant flailing. It makes Ronan, just introduced as the kind of guy who literally bathes in his enemies' blood, look like a child throwing a tantrum, while Thanos's ambitions are set so high that the destruction of an entire planet doesn't concern him one way or the other.
And a hard-fought battle, any kind of straight fight, is one the Guardians would have lost — they only succeed through trickery and the power of dance. That's the kind of team they are. They're criminal scum, and part of what Ronan is there to do is show how awful the villain has to be in order for these people to look good — as well as for them to find the lines they won't cross so they can convince themselves they need to be better. I don't think a fight against Thanos, who they would never be allowed to meaningfully defeat or even fight directly for any length of time, would have accomplished that.
I do think Perlman deserved more of the credit than she got, but I don't think the script itself was written as a direct fuck-off to her. There's a lot of ways in which it's a very personal script for James Gunn in particular, but that also means a lot of the characters' flaws are his own, and they are significant flaws for anyone to try and work through. I think a lot of it comes down to him just feeling like it doesn't mean anything unless he can tell himself that he got there on his own, which, while certainly falling under the category of toxic masculinity, is more beta-male bullshit than alpha.
Edited by Unsung on Aug 20th 2018 at 9:56:31 AM
No, that's Alpha Male bullshit. "I ALONE am the only one who deserves the credit for MY accomplishments that are MINE and MINE ALONE" is the same kind of Alpha Male behavior endorsed by Donald Trump and his ilk. Part of the misunderstanding of wolf behavior that leads to the concept of "Alpha" and "Beta" males is the idea that "Alpha" males are 100% self-made titans of masculinity who don't need anyone.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 20th 2018 at 11:30:14 AM
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I agree, and I definitely got the sense that Thanos was more annoyed that Ronan was defying him than in any way threatened, but in hindsight maybe the scene should have been tweaked. Like instead of hanging up in annoyance, he could have laughed in Ronan's face and said something like "I look forward to it."
That would handily explain his lack of involvement in the end of the film. As far as he's concerned, Ronan is still going to be delivering the Power Stone to him, so he doesn't need to do anything. And then he's surprised when Ronan manages to lose, but he doesn't actually care.
Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.Thanos should care about what happens to one of the Infinity Gems that he's trying to get his hands on. He absolutely should care. That kind of aloofness about whether or not he succeeds in his own mission is why he was the butt of so many jokes for years.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I was thinking more like "Oh, that boy got killed on Xandar and they kept the Stone? I'll get to it later. My scepter on Earth is in the process of getting me the Space Stone, and that will make collecting the rest so much easier." And then Ultron fails, losing him both the Mind and Space Stones, which pisses him off enough to get up and do everything himself—starting with the Power Stone, since he knows where it is and Xandar is weakened.
EDIT: I forgot the Space Stone wasn't on Earth at the time. Well, assuming Thanos knew that, it was still best to wait until Earth was dealt with and the Mind Stone back in his possession (and the Time Stone, if he knew it was on Earth) before acting. Having a Stone on hand would make attacking Xandar and Asgard easier. He had a lot of irons in the fire, retrieving the Stones, and it was only when they all starting failing that he said "Fine, I'll do it myself."
Edited by Discar on Aug 20th 2018 at 11:00:37 AM
Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.Yeah, I know about how actual wolf packs have nothing to do with whole alpha/beta dynamic. Look, you brought it up.
That does describe alpha males to a tee, but it doesn't fully account for the the longtime geekbro onetime punk-rocker who sees themselves as having suffered and paid their dues and is thus now "owed"... which has come full horseshoe and and now become toxic in its own right, because yesterday's geeky outsiders are today's techbro establishment. It's not really different, but I think it's more fixable. I mean, I have to hope.
I like that. That would've fit more with the version of Thanos we eventually got.
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I don't know, the jokes didn't really stick. They were there, but the overall impression I got was that most fans still felt Thanos was suitably intimidating.
Edited by Unsung on Aug 20th 2018 at 12:03:18 PM
And then he still sat on his duff for three more years before he actually went to Xandar to get the Power Gem.
The MCU's consistent refusal to give Thanos anything to actually do in the time between Avengers and Infinity War didn't really help sell the guy as this huge and terrible threat. It made him look unmotivated and apathetic about his own agenda.
Everyone talked about how scary he was, but at no point during the six-year build-up did they actually show us any reason to be afraid of the guy. The only thing he had going for him was if you knew him from the comics.
Guardians 1 was his chance to actually take the stage and say, "THIS is who Thanos is. THIS is why you should fear him." And that was taken away in favor of Raging Testosterone Mandroid Ronan.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 20th 2018 at 12:05:26 PM
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.It said to me here's a guy who can afford to wait. It doesn't make him terrifying, but it does make him... credible, I'd say. YMMV. But it's credibility which, as the big bedazzled purple guy with the nutsack chin, he needed more than to be scary. Scary's easy, at super tier. Scary can be established in seconds, by, say, beating down the Hulk.
Edited by Unsung on Aug 20th 2018 at 12:29:10 PM
Notably, Loki was another problem with Thanos's build-up. Avengers clearly stated that Thanos would f*ck Loki's shit up if he failed him.
That never happened. Like Ronan, Thanos never actually took any action against Loki. The only reason he even runs into him in Infinity War is because Loki happened to have the Space Gem on his person. If Loki hadn't stolen it, Thanos would have spent that time sifting through Asgard, City of Magma looking for a blue light.
He never went after Gamora.
He never went after Nebula.
This was Thanos's build-up: empty threats, vague posturing, and a belligerent refusal to ever do anything to advance his own goal while all of his minions consistently failed around him or betrayed him without consequence.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 20th 2018 at 12:08:33 PM
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Sure, but he had other things to do.
I don't know, I just don't really see these things as a problem. No, he's not a cartel boss cutting off people's toes and burning their houses down. He doesn't need to do that to accomplish his goals. He actually doesn't really posture or make threats, either — the threats are all implied or inferred. People who represent a significant danger on their own are scared of him, therefore there must be a reason for that. Is it as harrowing as, say, the buildup for Wilson Fisk? No, but it's not trying to do the same thing. It's meant to be fun, playful. He's incredibly powerful, sure, but he's also a big wrinkly purple Easter egg, and the movie knows it.
I think it invites people to let their guard down, which is how the MCU increases the buy-in from people who don't normally like this kind of genre movie, least of all one with actual superheroes. Sort of like how this blue executioner dude they call Ronan, the Accuser is treated as one big joke about 60% of the time.
At what point does "he must be so scary if all these losses mean nothing to him" turn into Informed Ability.
Yeah, Thanos only made three appearances prior to Infinity War, all of them very brief cameos.
I never felt like I needed to know what Thanos was up to, because he's an outer space character. Presumably he's got his own shit going on, on a bunch of different planets, far away from where any of our main characters live.

I kind of figured that's just one of the many ways of wrecking shit the Power Stone can make happen. Like, this is all improvisation on Ronan's part, is the impression I got. His hammer wasn't slotted for materia, he just decided that's what made sense and it worked because the Infinity Stones seem to function based on the user's will, right? Thinking about it this hard is probably exactly what you're not supposed to do — they do what the plot demands. They are the ultimate Mac Guffins.
Edited by Unsung on Aug 20th 2018 at 4:55:41 AM