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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#88501: Aug 20th 2018 at 1:44:29 PM

To clarify what I'm trying to say, I do think there's a line between Peter's arc in the first Guardians (taking some responsibility and being less of a manchild) and the plot point of his connection with his mother. The latter I do give to Perlman, but I just don't know if that arc played out at all similarly in her draft. Maybe the original version of Starlord wasn't such a manbaby.

I don't know, I just never felt Thanos's absence all that keenly. Yeah, he does sit on his chair all day. He's Orcus on His Throne. That probably doesn't work for everyone, but showing who his minions are and the powers they each wield does work to build him up. Him actively being the villain and actually being handed any kind of personal defeat, on the other hand, would've undercut the threat he represents in Infinity War.

Edited by Unsung on Aug 20th 2018 at 3:02:36 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#88502: Aug 20th 2018 at 1:46:04 PM

There is no situation where Thanos being the main villain of Guardians 1 is a good idea. Either Thanos loses and he looks like a wuss and the Avengers build-up was for nothing, or he wins and the Guardians lose in their first movie.

There is actually a middle ground. Namely: they succeed in saving Xandar and its people from Thanos, but lose the Power Gem to him.

This spares Infinity War the awkwardness of going, "Oh, uh, Xandar got smashed offscreen I guess? Doesn't matter, Thanos has the Gem now."

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#88503: Aug 20th 2018 at 1:48:20 PM

The proto team that becomes the Guardians were all criminals in the comics

Criminals according to the Kree so some of it was stuff like "loudly proclaiming you were gonna birth a celestial messiah" or "sleeping with a Kree woman" but criminals nonetheless

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#88504: Aug 20th 2018 at 1:53:10 PM

[up][up]... no, I can't see it working. Thanos needs to be an unstoppable juggernaut, and you don't portray that by having him barely eke out a victory. You do that by having a minion of his be a nigh-unstoppable juggernaut.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#88505: Aug 20th 2018 at 1:56:08 PM

Having Xandar saved and the Power Stone lost seems like the worst of both worlds to me, leaving both the heroes and the villains with a defeat. What we've currently got is already a middle ground, too — the heroes win, but Thanos doesn't really lose. And it further builds up Thanos as this generic godlike Evil Overlord figure, which I actually like because Infinity War, rather than playing that up, instead goes out of its way to humanize the character.

The idea that Thanos just undoes all the Guardians' best efforts on Xandar entirely offscreen works for me, too. It sells us on his sheer power and indifference all at once, and carries with it some of the feeling I always had with comics where things might happen in a crossover in another series you weren't reading, and the story would just carry on. It made the world feel larger to me. And always leaving the reader/viewer wanting more has got to be intentional on the MCU's part.

Edited by Unsung on Aug 20th 2018 at 5:03:24 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#88506: Aug 20th 2018 at 2:02:04 PM

I personally prefer the climax where the Guardians successfully command the Power Stone, which may have not been possible in a Thanos-as-the-Big Bad version.

But I do think it was a mistake to show him be so easily betrayed by Ronan. Maybe have Thanos at the end of their last communique invite Ronan’s threat of vengeance rather than be taken off guard by it, showing he’s not at all afraid of being challenged by him.

And I do prefer Xandar-saved-Stone-lost (maybe Yondu taking and losing it) to “oh BTW Thanos walked into Xandar and it exploded or whatever.”

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Aug 20th 2018 at 2:04:46 AM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#88507: Aug 20th 2018 at 2:05:27 PM

But that kind of works into his reaction to Gamora's betrayal. It's not that he's threatened, he's just... hurt. Why does everyone I know keep betraying me? It's not like I'm killing half of them personally, I'm not doing a King Solomon thing.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#88508: Aug 20th 2018 at 2:12:27 PM

He can be emotional about someone who’s like a daughter to him betraying him while not being perturbed by the rebellion of Whiny Dude from Planet 95633 Complaining About Planet 473202.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Aug 20th 2018 at 2:15:08 AM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#88509: Aug 20th 2018 at 2:13:42 PM

I'm not really arguing with you, that's just how it read to me.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#88510: Aug 20th 2018 at 2:41:05 PM

While I like Nebula as a character, her being a later addition explains why she feels underwritten and kind of shoehorned in the first Guardians movie.

I think putting Thanos more in the background was a good idea in a "how else do they defeat him and we need a clear win for such a fun movie" point of view. Replacing him with Ronan of all characters might not have been the best idea. I actually think that it would have been more interesting if all the characters in the movie had been children of Thanos on a mission. And I say this as someone who actually enjoys Ronan. My objection is more in the context of what the character is in the comics and how him and Nebula are kind of the elements in the movie which feel the most, well, awkward? Everything else goes right together, but those two feel like one step too many, if you get my drift.

In any case, Nicole Perlman deserved her credit. It wouldn't have hurt James Gunn's career in the slightest if he had shared the spotlight with her.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#88511: Aug 20th 2018 at 3:22:05 PM

Both her and Ronan felt underwritten in my opinion. Lee Pace's performance saves it and makes for Marvel's most successful variant of the Shallow One-Dimensional Bad Guy Just Wants To Do Bad Stuff villain, but the text of the character is kinda dumb.

Like. His plan was to annihilate Xandar in a planet-busting kaboom. That was his plan. Destroy all of Xandar in one huge Power Gem explosion. While he's standing on it. The entire dynamic of his plan required him to die with Xandar.

Now, if this was intended to be a suicide bombing, great. That works fine with his character. He's a radical extremist acting on genocidal hate. It totally fits that he'd blow himself up to exterminate his hated race of people.

But then Gunn also put in that scene where he kills The Other just to show off how big his dick is and then turns on Thanos and declares that the big guy is next on his Kill List.

So. Like. He's clearly intending to nuke the entire planet of Xandar around his face and then live. Somehow. And then go beat Thanos to death with his giant penis.

Either not having the scene where he goes "After I blow up Xandar and kill myself I AM COMING FOR YOU THANOS" or giving him a different means of destroying Xandar would have made for a more consistent character. As it is, he's a dumb bad guy with a nonsensical agenda who feels like his script was scribbled on a cocktail napkin and contained only the words "MANLIER THAN THANOS RAAAAAAAAARGH", brilliantly performed by Lee Pace.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 20th 2018 at 4:26:09 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#88512: Aug 20th 2018 at 3:26:48 PM

I figured he was just going to fly out of the debris on his hammer, Thor-style. The Power Stone lets him survive being shot point-blank with the gun Rocket had cobbled together, and the MCU is always really vague about how strong and/or indestructible anyone is at any given time.

As it is, he's a dumb bad guy with a nonsensical agenda who feels like his script was scribbled on a cocktail napkin and contained only the words "MANLIER THAN THANOS RAAAAAAAAARGH", brilliantly performed by Lee Pace.

All true. Which seems to be 100% intentional, and I would say it works.

Edited by Unsung on Aug 20th 2018 at 4:27:46 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#88513: Aug 20th 2018 at 3:27:44 PM

Fly where? It is never indicated that Ronan can breathe in space.

Perhaps the Power Gem will allow him to withstand enough explosive force to destroy an entire planet, but I doubt his ship can.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 20th 2018 at 4:30:04 AM

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#88514: Aug 20th 2018 at 3:28:52 PM

He didn't intend for his ship to crash

After that it was just spite I figure

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Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#88515: Aug 20th 2018 at 3:29:17 PM

That sounds about right.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#88516: Aug 20th 2018 at 3:29:28 PM

To his ship? Which wouldn't have been destroyed if all had gone according to plan?

[up][up]Yeah, this.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Aug 20th 2018 at 3:31:47 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#88517: Aug 20th 2018 at 3:29:51 PM

He did intend to land the ship, though.

If he was planning on dropping out of it Captain America style, then the entire "Don't let his ship land!" climax falls completely apart. If everything went according to plan, his ship would have been resting on the planet's surface when the entire thing exploded with planet-busting force.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 20th 2018 at 4:32:07 AM

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#88518: Aug 20th 2018 at 3:30:57 PM

Maybe he had another ship in orbit that he was planning to fly to, but they noped out of there after Ronan's whole fleet crashed and Ronan was killed.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#88519: Aug 20th 2018 at 3:32:19 PM

You can't just invent details like that and then claim they explain shitty writing decisions. If he had another ship waiting for him in orbit, that would have been explained in the film.

As it was, no effort was put into explaining how Ronan planned on surviving the destruction of Xandar. Only that if he wasn't stopped, then he totally would and then he'd go hunt down Thanos and kill him too just for the hell of it.

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#88520: Aug 20th 2018 at 3:32:21 PM

The ship landing is about making a statement, because he's a terrorist. If he gets his way, he gets back aboard and Xandar blows up as he flies away. If his escape route is blocked, he's going to blow everything up anyway, because he hates Xandar just that much. It's not especially rational, but I would say that irrational posturing is consistent behaviour for the Ronan of the movie.

Edited by Unsung on Aug 20th 2018 at 4:35:31 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#88521: Aug 20th 2018 at 3:33:39 PM

Maybe he was intending to destroy the surface of Xandar, then fly away on his ship while it was exploding.

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#88522: Aug 20th 2018 at 3:33:53 PM

Does the Power Gem have a fuse all of a sudden? The film never suggests that Xandar's detonation would be a delayed reaction, whereby Ronan has time to walk away, climb aboard his ship, lift off the planet, and reach a safe distance prior to detonation.

The way it's framed is simple: If the Power Gem touches Xandar's surface, the planet explodes and everyone dies. The Guardians have to stop this from happening. No further details are ever expounded upon.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 20th 2018 at 4:34:14 AM

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#88523: Aug 20th 2018 at 3:36:06 PM

I don't think he was just going to leave the Power Stone behind. Maybe he was going to crack the planet in half and let gravity shake it apart. I don't know because they don't really get that far, but that doesn't seem like it takes much suspension of disbelief.

The Guardians say that if the Power Stone touches Xandar it's game over, but that's just a guess. They don't know anything about the Stone or Ronan or anything. They're idiots. And of course Ronan needs to make sure his message is heard before he kills everyone, because that's his whole deal as villain — over-the-top, insane posturing.

Edited by Unsung on Aug 20th 2018 at 4:40:46 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#88524: Aug 20th 2018 at 3:37:00 PM

Don't we see a planet being destroyed by the power gem in the Collector's slideshow?

It's a wave of destruction dealie not an earth shattering kaboom

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#88525: Aug 20th 2018 at 3:39:24 PM

Maybe he was just planning to destroy the core, then get a safe distance away in the lengthy 5 minutes he'd have before the planet explodes.


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