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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#88076: Jul 31st 2018 at 12:12:02 PM

When is Gamora?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#88077: Jul 31st 2018 at 12:12:49 PM

Only Drax knows Mantis was kidnapped and enslaved. Everyone else just knows she works for Ego. Given that the Guardians immediately adopt her, claiming they’re fine with her enslavement is baseless. I agree there are gross orientalist undertones.

"Smiling. I hear it is the thing to do to make people like you."

"No one has ever asked me a personal question!"

"I mostly use it to help my master sleep."

Nobody is at all bothered by the fact that she's basically never met another person in her entire life and also that she calls Ego "Master". They're just like, "Yeah, this is absolutely normal behavior. Nothing objectionable in this at all."

The only person who is bothered, Gamora, isn't even upset about that. She just finds Mantis's powers intrusive, and also she hates Mantis's stupid face under the Hollywood Law of Snotty Bitches, whereupon female characters must inherently despise all other female characters five seconds after meeting them.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#88078: Jul 31st 2018 at 12:25:54 PM

They've only really known her for a few hours before they find out the truth about Ego, don't they? It's a suspicious relationship, but they've probably run into worse, and looked the other way then, too. That's not okay, and hardly heroic, but they were all actual thieves and murderers before the first movie. "Okay with it", maybe not, but indifferent? Otherwise occupied? Reluctant to immediately alienate Peter's wizard dad? It probably would've been better if they had done the latter, in the long run, but I can see the mental excuses being made.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#88079: Jul 31st 2018 at 12:50:38 PM

Everybody asks where, who, and why is Gamora, but nobody ever asks how is Gamora? sad

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#88081: Jul 31st 2018 at 12:54:53 PM

she’s the least weird/edgy Guardian.

I would disagree with that. She's way edgier than Drax.

This song needs more love.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#88082: Jul 31st 2018 at 12:56:31 PM

I like Gamora quite a lot in the movies and even though I can acknowledge that she fits within a somewhat standard Closer to Earth female character role, besides thinking she nonetheless is a well-drawn and entertaining character, I also think that the team wouldn't work well with a comics-accurate Gamora, as it would be too many hard edged jerks and wouldn't facilitate the kind of bonding and character growth that's one of the strongest parts of the movie. I mean the MCU version of Valkyrie is pretty close to Gamora's personality in the comics, but not only do I think she is a good deal "softer", but Thor is much more heroic than Quill was in the first movie.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#88083: Jul 31st 2018 at 12:56:54 PM

[up][up][up][up] We need a "Hollywood Law of Snooty Bitches" trope. I remember something similar being in TLP but I can't find it.

About Gunn: I don't think he should've been fired, but I also don't think Disney should bring him back. I understand why they fired him, I think it's a mistake, but I also really think caving into pressure (even if it's to an end I support) is going to invite so many problems down the line.

[up] Comics-accurate Gamora would be a nightmare, especially if we also got a Comics-Accurate Drax.

Edited by Larkmarn on Jul 31st 2018 at 3:57:17 PM

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#88084: Jul 31st 2018 at 1:00:42 PM

Well, now that Drax is almost pure comic relief she is. In the first movie, he was a Mangst elemental with comic moments. But Gamora takes a character who would've been nothing but pure '90s edginess and makes her surprisingly moral and nicer than you'd expect from a galactic assassin. I really liked her scenes with Nebula — there's a lot going on there, much of of it carried in the things they don't say, the "remember that time when..." ("...you almost killed me") moments.

I do still wish we'd seen more of her time with Thanos, both in the present and the past. And with the other Children, for that matter. Maybe they can still do some more flashbacks in GOTG 3.

Edited by Unsung on Jul 31st 2018 at 2:01:20 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#88085: Jul 31st 2018 at 1:01:43 PM

We need a "Hollywood Law of Snooty Bitches" trope.

Territorial Smurfette.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#88086: Jul 31st 2018 at 1:13:34 PM

[up][up][up] Given that either keeping him fired or rehiring him will be caving to public pressure, I’d rather they cave to the public pressure which didn’t come from a far-right conspiracy theorist, white supremacist, and admitted rapist.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#88088: Jul 31st 2018 at 1:15:08 PM

She's the blue one,right?

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#88089: Jul 31st 2018 at 2:36:34 PM

But, what is a gamora?

"But Gamora takes a character who would've been nothing but pure '90s edginess and makes her surprisingly moral and nicer than you'd expect from a galactic assassin"

Which is fine but is also annoying since women usually dont get that kind of roles, being forced to be nice person, it also make her claim of being a deadly assassin questionable.

But with Mantis I can get why didnt ask anything: the whole situation was weird, even by the already lax standar for the guardians. Starlord dad show out of nowhere, he is a planet and everything is fine?, is kinda easy miss Mantis as sort of servant or female butler than a slave.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Cross (Don’t ask)
#88090: Jul 31st 2018 at 4:32:06 PM

Or slavery is still a thing in their Galaxy, they didn't care about the ones The Collector had.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#88091: Jul 31st 2018 at 4:41:17 PM

Kinda inconsistent for a movie that also has Yondu’s enslavement treated as cruel in-universe.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jul 31st 2018 at 4:41:01 AM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#88092: Jul 31st 2018 at 4:44:17 PM

[up][up][up]I don't know, the fact that Gamora is one of the most moral of the Guardians despite also being the one who probably did the worst things in her past life is an interesting part, and I do think some of that past comes through, mostly in her interactions with Nebula. She's not a femme fatale, and she's not 100% more-psycho-than-thou like Hela, but she's not a complete saint. And that more complex antihero character — it seems like that's something women don't get to play very often either.

I was really hoping we'd get to see more of her past with Thanos and the other Children. Anyone know if that made it into any of the deleted scenes?

[up]Slavery is definitely a big thing for the Kree at the very least, going by Agents of SHIELD, and if it's any more common than that in the cosmic MCU, it wouldn't really surprise me if the Guardians weren't the first ones to object. They're not really top-drawer heroes, even if they are trying to be better.

Edited by Unsung on Jul 31st 2018 at 5:50:24 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#88093: Jul 31st 2018 at 4:45:27 PM

I like Gamora quite a lot in the movies and even though I can acknowledge that she fits within a somewhat standard Closer to Earth female character role, besides thinking she nonetheless is a well-drawn and entertaining character, I also think that the team wouldn't work well with a comics-accurate Gamora, as it would be too many hard edged jerks and wouldn't facilitate the kind of bonding and character growth that's one of the strongest parts of the movie. I mean the MCU version of Valkyrie is pretty close to Gamora's personality in the comics, but not only do I think she is a good deal "softer", but Thor is much more heroic than Quill was in the first movie.

I get what you're saying about too many hard edges but, like, being the glue that holds these people together is kind of supposed to be Quill's job, not Gamora's.

The film gave the job of being the grounded emotional center to The Chick because of course they did, stripping out her own hard edge in the process and freeing Quill up to be The Sleazy Chris Pratt Character instead of the guy who makes this rag-tag team work.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#88094: Jul 31st 2018 at 5:11:30 PM

I'm not quite sure they made her into the Heart, exactly. The conscience, very much so, and that generally means she falls into the nagging girlfriend archetype which is definitely unfortunate, but the rest of the Guardians aren't really the types to listen to their consciences, so Quill does still end up being the one to bring the team together in the sense of explaining that looking out for others is looking out for yourself.

What I like about Gamora comes down mostly to her relationship with Nebula. She doesn't get a lot to do in the first movie, and the romance with her and Peter has always felt forced, the way most of the MCU movies' romances do. But that bond and sense of history that Gamora and Nebula have, those beats are some of the strongest in the movie, and part of what made me like the second movie better was leaning on that theme of found family all the harder. Because Gamora's a big picture person, and she relies on that image of herself to make a clean break with Thanos and cling to a sense of what's right, but with Nebula you see how principle is not always enough. Doing right on a larger scale sometimes leaves the people right in front of you behind.

Reading into some things there, but there's potential in the character. Makes me wish this had the time to explore these relationships the way a TV series would, since that's pretty much how the Guardians movies have been written.

Edited by Unsung on Jul 31st 2018 at 6:26:45 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#88095: Jul 31st 2018 at 5:18:04 PM

Whats funny is that Star-Lord couldn't hold this ragtag team together in the comics either. The original Star-Lord guardians team eventually revealed he got Mantis to mind control people into agreeing to be on the team.

Unsurprisingly this caused most of everyone to quit. Maybe more surprisingly, it was Rocket that tried to keep it together and started a new team with whoever was left plus some add ons.

If there was anything that was glue that wasn't mind control, it might have been Phyla-Vell but then she got all dark and gritty and then she got Thanos'd to death. And at that point, there was no question of the team not staying together because shit was bad enough that the whole cosmic marvel was coming together to deal with it.

Edited by Bocaj on Jul 31st 2018 at 8:19:06 AM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#88096: Jul 31st 2018 at 5:19:36 PM

Gamora and Nebula's arc is consistently one of the best subplots in both films.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#88097: Jul 31st 2018 at 6:01:29 PM

It's very noticeable in the films that they rely on Gamora being the sanest one on the team for the plot to advance. In that vein, she is The Heart in getting them to move forward. But it's not always to the benefit of her characterization as often it causes a pattern of "the Guardians do wacky things, and then Gamora orders them to stop the jokes and get on with the plot already". Repeat over and over again.

What I'm saying is that from a plot standpoint she's the most active and leading character, but from a within-the-scene standpoint she's depicted like a killjoy for having to move the story forward.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#88098: Jul 31st 2018 at 6:22:58 PM

She's a lot less interesting when she's forcing the rest of the team to Stop Having Fun, I agree with that. But the idea that she's the Heart is something of a fakeout, because the rest of the Guardians don't really listen to her, and despite having the strongest moral code, she's not very forgiving. And in order for this ragtag bunch of misfits to redeem themselves, they have to be given that second chance, and third, and possibly fourth, fifth, and so on. Gamora's perfectionism means that's not easy for her. It's not easy for any of us, really.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#88099: Jul 31st 2018 at 8:34:31 PM

@Tobias- I can acknowledge that. It did strike me that if you made Quill the more moral/sane one of the group (albeit with some comic foibles), then you'd basically have Farscape, which is not a bad thing.

I guess at the end of the day though, although I have some issues with both the "sleazy Chris Pratt character" and some of the movies' more sexist humor, I think I'm happier with the way characterization was divided up than the alternatives. Also, while I admit this is probably more my handwaving it than necessarily deliberate (although see the Gamora and Nebula fight in the second movie), but I think Gamora's personality as well as her comparable weakness in the first movie kind of works because I imagine she's doing something similar to Kenshin- basically becoming/putting on a very friendly and non-threatening personality and otherwise holding back and being deferential to others, including allowing oneself to be a Butt-Monkey.

The other comparison that came to mind (given that I believe Gunn really liked the original Thunderbolts) was Abner Jenkins/Mach-Whatever. Similarly, an ex-villain turned hero, and at least when Nick Spencer writes him, he has the personality of The Cape, but is kind of hapless and really idolizes other heroes (think Ant-Man in Civil War).

But basically, I can buy into the idea that a notorious ex-assassin would be a puppy dog. Incidentally, Black Widow is pretty nice (although somewhat harder-edged than Gamora) as is Bucky once he gets unbrainwashed.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#88100: Aug 1st 2018 at 8:10:18 AM

The interesting thing about he Guardians is that they're all different flavors of amoral. Starlord is kind of a sleeze and not above squeezing profit out of "doing the right thing". Gamora is a ruthless assassin, but mostly just wants to be left alone. Drax is driven by revenge above all else. Rocket is a self-centered asshole, but still genuinely cares about his friends. Groot has a childlike innocence, he doesn't understand the concept of morality.

The problem is that this dynamic sort of falls apart after the first movie. In GOTG 2, Starlord is fully wrapped up in his own personal issues (well, the movie is about him finding his dad). Drax's revenge plot is basically over so he has nothing to add but comic relief to a group that's already heavy on comedy. Gamora goes from "ruthless self-interest" to basically being the Token Good Teammate. Groot regresses from "just does what he's told — exactly what he's told" to "can't follow basic instructions". Rocket's just sort of there, without any hint of the vulnerability he had in the first movie (where, despite all his complaints, he was attached to the group because he really, really didn't want to be left alone).

By Infinity War, Starlord has gone full "just a loud idiot driven by pure id", Gamora is a MacGuffin, Groot is a one-shot punchline ("he's a teen, lol!"), and Drax and Rocket are just kinda hanging around.

tldr the problem with the Guardians is Flanderization.

Edited by NativeJovian on Aug 1st 2018 at 11:10:02 AM

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

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