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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#87376: Jul 1st 2018 at 2:32:47 PM

To be fair, they really didn't want the hulk.

They needed someone with a background in Gamma Radiation, but when you deal with Bruce, the Hulk is kinda a package deal.

It was Tony who said he'd probably be joining them in battle (and actually predicted he'd get there), and Bruce himself who opted to do so of his own accord.

I mean, I actually want to believe Fury never had any intention of sending Bruce into a fight if he didn't want to.

One Strip! One Strip!
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#87377: Jul 1st 2018 at 2:34:33 PM

I wonder what side Bruce would have taken if he had been in Civil War

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#87378: Jul 1st 2018 at 2:38:56 PM

Almost certainly not Tony’s. Or any side that had Ross attached to it, really.

I could absolutely see him taking it as the perfect opportunity to retire, though.

[up][up] The implication is definitely there that Fury was counting on the Hulk being in his corner of push came to shove, though I’m inclined to think he was still being honest when he said he hoped hey would only need a scientist for this. There’s an almost sweet sense that Fury believed in Banner in a way that nobody else but Tony did, given that despite he danger SHIELD went out of its way to prevent anyone from disturbing the life he was leading.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 1st 2018 at 2:44:26 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#87380: Jul 1st 2018 at 2:45:29 PM

I imagine he would take issue with the Hulk being under anyone's control. Especially the government's.

This song needs more love.
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#87381: Jul 1st 2018 at 2:47:04 PM

If the Sokovian Accords decreed that Hulk, and other Gamma Monsters like Abomination, couldn't become international weapons of war under the Avengers, then I thi k he'd be in favour of it.

However, there's no way Tony or Bruce would put the Hulk into that airport battle.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#87382: Jul 1st 2018 at 2:48:09 PM

Well Fury was pragmatic...trying to contain the Hulk usually causes more damage than leaving Bruce in peace.

MedusaStone Since: Jan, 2015
#87383: Jul 1st 2018 at 3:09:32 PM

I wish Bruce had been there for Civil War just to see his face when Tony tried to convince him that signing a document that gave the UN -and by extension Thunderbolt Ross- absolute control over him was a good idea.

Cross (Don’t ask)
#87384: Jul 1st 2018 at 3:34:50 PM

Except, as repeatedly demonstrated, Ross didn't have absolute control over them.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#87385: Jul 1st 2018 at 3:47:16 PM

That matters a lot less than how Bruce would perceive it. As a character, Bruce has little reason to say “well, Ross doesn’t have absolute control over me if I sign, just a large amount of legal control over its use, so I guess it’s okay.” He doesn’t want anyone controlling the Hulk, period.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 1st 2018 at 3:48:47 AM

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#87386: Jul 1st 2018 at 3:53:50 PM

As if anyone can control the Hulk........wait.

"Mai waifu."
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#87387: Jul 1st 2018 at 4:14:13 PM

I thought the Accords just meant the Avengers needed approval to operate within countries during missions?

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#87388: Jul 1st 2018 at 4:23:09 PM

That's still a form of control. The implication is that they could also be ordered to go somewhere in particular.

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#87389: Jul 1st 2018 at 4:23:34 PM

[up][up]As well as apparently saying that they could be indefinitely detained (by the US? or is the Raft internationally controlled?) in inhumane conditions without trial or access to legal counsel. That's the point where I stop being onboard with the Accords.

[up] When the Accords were first mentioned, Steve worried that could happen, but we're never given any indication that there's actually any provision in the Accords that allow them to order the Avengers to go anywhere. It sounds like they're designed to allow the UN, or individual countries, to determine when the Godzilla Threshold warranting the Avengers' intervention has been met, rather than letting the Avengers make that call on their own. Which is something I'd support, if not for the use of indefinite detention and completely ignoring the Avengers' civil liberties.

Edited by Galadriel on Jul 1st 2018 at 7:27:58 AM

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#87390: Jul 1st 2018 at 4:26:04 PM

Are the Raft conditions inhumane? They looked like they were in normal max security prison cells to me. It's also possible that there would have been a trial or some kind of tribunal. Hawkeye and Ant-Man got a plea deal by the time of Infinity War.

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#87391: Jul 1st 2018 at 4:28:07 PM

Scarlet Witch looked like she had some kind of bomb attached to her neck and was kept immobile in a straightjacket, and all of them were kept in extremely encosed spaces with the indication that they would be kept there permanently, for 24 hours a day. Yes, that's inhumane.

There is nothing in the film to indicate any trial or any access to legal counsel (as the Raft's location is extremely secret, it's unlikely that access to counsel would even be possible).

Edited by Galadriel on Jul 1st 2018 at 7:32:24 AM

Cross (Don’t ask)
#87392: Jul 1st 2018 at 4:41:05 PM

Wanda's setup was to keep her from using her powers,so unfortunately it was a necessary precaution. Also, don't remember anything in the film saying they would be permanently detained there and going by Jessica Jones it seems to be public knowledge.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#87393: Jul 1st 2018 at 4:43:48 PM

They got a plea deal after they broke out of the raft. Most likely they then contacted the authorities and got a deal, that doesn't mean that anyone would have bothered to give them a fair trial beforehand.

And the cells don't seem to have a toilet, it didn't look that they were ever let out, and Wanda is not only in a shock collar and a straight jacket, but also solitary confinement.

But then, for German standards US prisons in general are inhuman.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#87394: Jul 1st 2018 at 4:50:30 PM

US prisons are also inhumane by US standards. But the private prison industry is strong enough to basically do whatever the hell they want.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#87395: Jul 1st 2018 at 7:10:01 PM

[up][up] You say the cells don't appear to have toilets, and say there's no indication they were ever let out. But since their cells weren't piled high with excrement when Cap broke them out, obviously both of those things can't be true.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#87396: Jul 1st 2018 at 7:41:51 PM

I thought the Accords just meant the Avengers needed approval to operate within countries during missions?

It's not explicit in the writing (iirc, it's treated as an implication), but both the Avengers and - more importantly - Ross act as if the Accords also makes it so they act under a degree of control: they don't just need approval to act, they can also be sent to act under the authority of others.

Hence Ross spending most of the movie barking orders at everybody (bad asshole Ross, that is, not good asshole Ross who ended up going to Wakanda), until towards the end where Tony decides he doesn't actually care about Ross and outright ignores him repeatedly. Bruce wouldn't get to that point, though. He'd just say no from the start.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 1st 2018 at 7:43:55 AM

Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#87397: Jul 1st 2018 at 8:40:41 PM

Here is the debate with the heroes, and I wonder if Steve was meant to be right about what happened later.

Just Makima.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#87398: Jul 1st 2018 at 11:10:57 PM

More or less everyone is right in the discussion. That is the point. Every prediction made in it comes true (ie Tony's point that they are not better than the bad guys if they don't accept restrictions is ironically mirrored in Black Panther, who nearly kills an innocent man because he goes for revenge instead of justice, Sam is correct about his prediction that they will end up in prison without any rights, Vision is right about the danger of escalation, Natasha is right about them losing control if they don't try to stir the narrative aso).

The argument doesn't really end in the scene either. Ie Rhodey's "everyone has signed it" point is answered later on by Peggy Carter quoted by Sharon pointing out that sometimes the majority just isn't right. Woman's rights are one obvious example for it. If everyone had Rhodey's attitude, barefoot and pregnant would still be the norm today.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#87399: Jul 1st 2018 at 11:55:51 PM

I think Banner would just recluse himself and go on the run again. The ending of Age of Ultron had him effectively leave the team after repeatedly saying that he realized the Hulk was too dangerous to be part of a group and that he was fooling himself if he thought the Hulk could actually be a hero. Even at the start of the movie, where the Hulk is portrayed in a far more overtly heroic light than usual, he's still shown to be reluctant about joining in and feels terrible when he's told that the Hulk killed a bunch of people (even if they were bad guys). The last thing he would want is anyone putting the Hulk in a situation where he could potentially put a bunch of people at risk again.

Edited by comicwriter on Jul 1st 2018 at 11:58:28 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#87400: Jul 2nd 2018 at 5:33:15 AM

And the cells don't seem to have a toilet, it didn't look that they were ever let out, and Wanda is not only in a shock collar and a straight jacket, but also solitary confinement.

The collar isn't a shock collar. We don't see it being used to electrocute her. As for the straight jacket that's to restrain her and where was she shown in solitary confinement?

(as the Raft's location is extremely secret, it's unlikely that access to counsel would even be possible)

Apparently not so secret if Steve and Tony knew where it was.

Edited by windleopard on Jul 2nd 2018 at 5:34:33 AM


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