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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#86676: May 21st 2018 at 12:00:10 PM

For those concerned about Gyllenhaal only playing serious roles, he played a rather glorious Large Ham antagonist in Okja.

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#86677: May 21st 2018 at 12:13:19 PM

[up] Huh. I'd have to watch Okja myself, but that might be one of the reasons Jake's being eyed for Mysterio. Mysterio's supposed to be an over-the-top theatrical dude, right?

Especially if Venom gets pulled in after his solo film.

That's...actually got me thinking: what if the Venom movie turns out good? Will it increase the likelihood of seeing Venom in the MCU proper? I can't stop thinking about having a hypothetical Maximum Carnage movie with Tom Holland!Spidey and Tom Hardy!Venom...

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#86678: May 21st 2018 at 12:15:44 PM

Dude. Don't do that to me. Don't get my hopes up for a "Spider-Man" movie that's as much a Spider-Man film as Civil War was a Captain America film, featuring the Avengers duking it out with Carnage and his twisted murder-family.

edited 21st May '18 12:16:13 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#86679: May 21st 2018 at 12:19:21 PM

If they bring in Venom, then I'd really rather they take the proper time and effort to set it up well. The rivalry between Spider-Man and Venom isn't nearly as interesting if the latter is just made up of two assholes Peter has never met before.

edited 21st May '18 12:19:47 PM by LordVatek

This song needs more love.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#86680: May 21st 2018 at 12:23:29 PM

I'd focus on Carnage this time around,Venom has already been done in the Sam Remi movies

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#86681: May 21st 2018 at 12:27:14 PM

...setting aside the Venom film coming out, the two are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they're sequential. Venom leads directly into Carnage.

I've always said that my perfect Venom setup would be a trilogy structure. The first film would feature Spider-Man getting the symbiote and using it to battle some villain or another. The symbiote would not be the focus, but would be something that happens and helps Spider-Man win the day in a completely different plot.

Stinger: The reveal that the symbiote is living organism.

The second film would feature Spider-Man discovering the truth of the symbiote for control of his own body, culminating in its bonding with Eddie Brock and their subsequent throwdown. This movie is about Venom. Ending in the symbiote being forcibly separated from Eddie and him being sent to prison.

Stinger: Eddie sharing a cell with Cletus Kasady.

Then the third film would have the return of Venom, the birth of Carnage, and Spider-Man and Venom having to work together to combat this greater menace.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Aleistar Since: Feb, 2018 Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
#86682: May 21st 2018 at 12:29:15 PM

Imo Carnage was just made to have an "evil-er Venom" after Marvel decided to turn him into an antihero, and he's probably too close to the Heath Ledger Joker for most of the general audience; he hasn't really evolved past that general personality beyond the AXIS event.

[down] Yeah, basically that's what I meant. AXIS only evolved him because it it "inverted" his moral compass, so now he wants to do good but he's still a violent sociopath. And that development was pretty much tossed aside after the event ended.

edited 21st May '18 12:40:48 PM by Aleistar

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#86683: May 21st 2018 at 12:37:15 PM

[up]I thought Carnage was supposed to be just The Joker.

Anyway, Mysterio! Better have fourth wall breaks.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#86684: May 21st 2018 at 12:41:16 PM

> Venom leads directly into Carnage.

Traditionally yeah,but the films are can be very different,you could have Carnage and Venom arriving on Earth,later revealing that Carnage is Venom's offspring

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#86685: May 21st 2018 at 12:41:40 PM

He's not really meant to evolve. As noted, he's more "Marvel's Joker" than "Evil-er Venom". He doesn't even "Venom" right, necessarily; Venom uses his symbiote mostly to ape Spider-Man's powerset, but Carnage is wildly inventive and imaginative with his own, constantly testing its limits and constantly coming up with zany new ways to murder tons of people with it.

They're very different archetypes. The biggest draw of Carnage is similar to the Joker's draw; he pushes Spider-Man to his breaking point, both physically and philosophically. In addition to being monstrous enough to challenge Spider-Man's moral code, he's also formidable enough that Spider-Man usually can't actually win a fight with him unless he has outside assistance, whether that's Venom, another superhero, or a clone of himself.

Imagine if the Joker was such a deadly and capable fighter that Batman regularly lost their fights. It adds a whole new layer to the, "Should Batman kill the Joker?" question when you have to frantically wonder if, by taking him in alive, this rare opportunity to end his threat might never happen again. Indeed, Spider-Man has been pushed to the point of trying to employ lethal force against Carnage a couple of times out of sheer fear of what he might do if he isn't brought down by whatever means necessary, though he usually bails out of it.

That's a big part of Carnage's pull. It's really easy to hold to a high moral code when it's never truly challenged. Batman can object to killing villains because he's so powerful compared to his rogues that it's not really necessary, especially the one that matters most in the context of the question. But it's a much harder moral question to ask, "Is it okay to break your moral code and kill this person, if that is the only possible way you can think of to stop him?"

That's Carnage: the villain that Spider-Man is so petrified of that he stops quipping and earnestly contemplates the merits of killing.

edited 21st May '18 12:43:22 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Aleistar Since: Feb, 2018 Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
#86686: May 21st 2018 at 12:45:14 PM

[up] Those are all fair points; I just have a personal dislike of Carnage, but I understand why you and other people can like him.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#86687: May 21st 2018 at 12:46:06 PM

I should also note that Venom's role in all that is basically to be the voice of temptation, adding to Spider-Man's moral quandary. He's the guy who Spidey cannot win without, but who's standing there going, "We have to kill him. We literally have to kill him. It's the only possible way to win this."

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86688: May 21st 2018 at 1:07:59 PM

[up]Huh. All this time I just thought Carnage was a Boring 90's villain, but you've certainly put him into a different light.

Thanks Tobias!

Vulture. Shocker. Scorpion. Mysterio.

Huh. That is most of the Six. All we need now is Doc Ock and Electro or Kraven...or whoever else has been part of the group. Their line up is pretty variable.

One Strip! One Strip!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#86689: May 21st 2018 at 1:36:29 PM

I'm fond of Carnage.

I like the idea that the symbiote and the human host gel so well together because they're both just unstable psycho killers sharing a body.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#86690: May 21st 2018 at 2:13:45 PM

I really wouldn't have pictured Gylenhaal as Mysterio. Wondering exactly what his take on the character would be since he only tends to take more low-key, "serious" roles and I imagine Mysterio being pretty bombastic.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#86691: May 21st 2018 at 2:51:01 PM

I'm a little disappointed it's not Bruce Campbell, but perhaps he's too obvious and the MCU usually doesn't go for the pop casts.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86692: May 21st 2018 at 3:06:44 PM

I want "wacky" and relatively harmless Mysterio not manipulative sociopath Mysterio

See, what I want is wacky Mysterio played by manipulative and relatively harmless Mysterio played by manipulative sociopath Mysterio played by wacky sociopath Jake Gyllenhaal played by Jake Gyllenhaal.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#86693: May 21st 2018 at 3:24:56 PM

One of the reasons I've really wanted Mysterio was because I feel like the original Mysterio plot - with him taking advantage of Spidey's growing popularity to pretend to be him, discredit him while lining his pockets as a fake hero, and complicate Spidey's already conflicted relationship with his own superhero identity - is the absolute perfect step forward for the series.

Mysterio, as a character, takes advantage of the idea that Spider-Man is bringing the sensationalist and "friendly neighborhood" side of superherodom to the in-universe public. With Peter in Homecoming only just learning what kind of responsibility he's trying to embrace, him starting to become accustomed to a world that sees him as a superhero and deal with what that means is a great step forward.

It also works in a post-broken Avengers world, with nobody knowing what to think about those possibly criminal heroes of the past with their grand government and corporate connections, while Mysterio pretends to be an accessible "hero" that caters to the common denominator.

edited 21st May '18 3:25:23 PM by KnownUnknown

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#86694: May 21st 2018 at 4:10:41 PM

I'm a little disappointed it's not Bruce Campbell

I know I acknowledged the logic of them eyeing Gylenhaal, but I'd be lying if I didn't say I was disappointed too...sad

See, what I want is wacky Mysterio played by manipulative and relatively harmless Mysterio played by manipulative sociopath Mysterio played by wacky sociopath Jake Gyllenhaal played by Jake Gyllenhaal.
https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/image_8186.jpeg

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86695: May 21st 2018 at 4:22:31 PM

Not quite the reaction I was expecting, but I'll take it. [lol]

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#86696: May 21st 2018 at 6:58:47 PM

Huh! I was expecting the Tinkerer to become Mysterio like in Spectacular.

I wonder if he'll be some guy working for Scorpion, much like Shocker was some guy working for Vulture.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#86697: May 21st 2018 at 7:24:51 PM

I also kind of thought that Tinkerer would become Mysterio, but just as a note, in Spectacular, the Tinkerer and Mysterio were separate people, who both initially worked with The Chameleon.

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#86698: May 21st 2018 at 7:34:28 PM

Well I misremembered that plot point.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#86699: May 21st 2018 at 8:35:02 PM

The villain who became another villain was Montana, who went on to become Shocker.

Speaking of which, I'd kind of like to see the Enforcers in the Homecoming Universe. Like, if they turn up as Prowler's less scrupulous, but also less competent friends or something.

edited 21st May '18 8:35:14 PM by KnownUnknown

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#86700: May 22nd 2018 at 5:39:17 PM

First synopsis for Avengers 4:

“A culmination of 22 interconnected films the fourth installment of the Avengers saga will draw audiences to witness the turning point of this epic journey. Our beloved heroes will truly understand how fragile this reality is and the sacrifices that must be made to uphold it.

Suitably ominous.

edited 22nd May '18 5:39:42 PM by comicwriter


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