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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#86501: May 13th 2018 at 6:23:21 PM

Frank saved his platoon by killing a bunch of Afghan fighters in this long hallway fight scene done as a oner (and a damn good fight scene as I remember it).

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#86502: May 13th 2018 at 6:24:39 PM

[up]X4 Torture the innocent and murder civilians, all very much while enjoying it.

[up]X5 That’s probably my problem with the flashbacks, Frank isn’t fighting some greater evil in them, he’s fighting a bunch of people trying to protect their country from him, a murder happy, torture happy monster.

edited 13th May '18 6:26:22 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#86503: May 13th 2018 at 6:25:19 PM

Could I have some examples?

Oh God! Natural light!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86504: May 13th 2018 at 6:26:07 PM

Did he kill soldiers or civilians, which one?

Wait if his platoon was held hostage then he had a damn good reason to go in guns blazing.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#86505: May 13th 2018 at 6:28:40 PM

His platoon gets held hostage at a separate point, this is after we’ve seen them committing torture, mutilating corpses and if I remember right murdering civilians. He didn’t do any war crimes to save them.

I was rooting for the ‘bad guys’ in that scene because everything we’re shown on screen till that point indicates that he and his plantain are all terrible people and that the world would be a better place if the Taliban killed the lot of them.

[up][up] I know that a main plot point is how they repeatedly tourtured an innocent man, we get lots of flashbacks to that, I thinka round one of the flashbacks we see them mutilating corpses for shits and giggles.

[up] He killed both if I remember, the civilian stuff is done at different times from the killing of soilders, the soilders stuff I don’t mind, the civilian stuff, the torture and the corpse mutilation, he’s basicly an expy of every war crime the US has ever been accused of, and he’s the protagonist.

I’ll take the Inhuman Royal Family over him any day, at least they’re willing to try and improve, and at least Crystal and Medusa are shown as wrong with their racism, Frank is very much shown as the person we’re meant to feel bad for when he’s victimising others.

edited 13th May '18 6:33:03 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86506: May 13th 2018 at 6:30:23 PM

Aren't the Taliban terrorists?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#86507: May 13th 2018 at 6:34:04 PM

Sure, but the random afghan civilians they murder aren’t.

Plus by and decent definition Frank’s a terrorist, and one with much less sympathetic motives than the Taliban.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#86508: May 13th 2018 at 6:36:32 PM

I'm not sure what misinterpretation you could possibly have of the Taliban's motivations to come to that conclusion.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#86509: May 13th 2018 at 6:45:47 PM

None, they’re religious fantasists bent on installing an oppressive regime in their country under the mistaken belief that the US has invaded them to exploit their country, murder their people, torture them and insult their religion.

Except against Frank that belief isn’t mistaken, because that’s genuinely what he’s there to do.

While Frank’s motive is what? That he’s an angry shit who likes terrorising the local afghan population? Or later when is motive is that his white privillage got temporarily revoked and he had to suffer like so many others in the world and he decided to go on a murder rampage because his fragile masculinity couldn’t stand not reassuring itself with a big gun?

The Taliban aren’t in any way actully sympathetic, they’re religious extremist terrorists who’ve deluded themselves into thinking they’re fighting some evil foreign oppressors, thing is Frank is an evil foreign oppressor.

Frank Castle is what the Taliban make up to try and justify their terrorism.

edited 13th May '18 6:47:00 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#86510: May 13th 2018 at 6:46:35 PM

I feel like this conversation might wind up going somewhere really, really awkward.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86511: May 13th 2018 at 6:47:32 PM

Well we currently have someone defending an actual terrorist group so yeah its gotten very, VERY awkward.

edited 13th May '18 6:48:02 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#86512: May 13th 2018 at 6:48:25 PM

Might?

This is before we touch on the serious gender issues of The Punisher, beyond him being the ultimate toxic male fantasy his entire motive is man-pain over his wife getting stuffed in the fridge to give him an excuse to go around shooting people.

[up] I agree, you should relay stop defending The Punisher, it’s awkward as fuck.

Unless you’re trying to pretend that I’m defending the Taliban, in which case I suggest you try a new straw man.

edited 13th May '18 6:49:54 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#86513: May 13th 2018 at 6:48:39 PM

Yeah, Silas, I understand your feelings on the subject, but...well, let me put it this way - if I was doing PR for you, "the Taliban are mores sympathetic than Frank Castle" is...something I'd advise against you saying.

Oh God! Natural light!
Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#86514: May 13th 2018 at 6:50:39 PM

I need to rewatch Punisher, but I'm 95% certain that you are, if not completely off-base, exaggerating to fit your narrative and ignoring crucial details.

Like that Frank was lied to by his superiors and told that the civilians he was killing were terrorists as part of a conspiracy that Frank was not privvy to.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#86515: May 13th 2018 at 6:53:17 PM

[up][up] Hey I agree that it super fucked up, no show should ever make me think of the Taliban as any kind of even less evil group, that’s why I dislike the show so much, because that’s what it did and that’s super wrong. The Taliban are one of the most fucked up and downright evil groups on the planet, a fictional hero should not make them look better by comparison.

[up] I may be wrong, the torture bit was certainly something Frank was privy to and I’m unsure of how he would have been tricked into murdering civilians seeing as they will have been unarmed, but I fully admit to not having finished the series due to the disgusted it made me feel, so I may have missed big revelations later on.

edited 13th May '18 6:55:07 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#86516: May 13th 2018 at 6:59:03 PM

... So, to everyone else who hasn't seen it, as someone who actually watched the entire series and paid attention to it. It's not nearly as toxic and bad as it's being made out to be. There's some less than savory stuff, but the show also doesn't make Frank out to be squeaky-clean, and it doesn't shy away from the fact that he's done awful things. And the circumstances, while not legal and certainly fucked up, are not such that Frank knowingly tortured and killed innocent civilians.

The gun control debate is pretty cringe, though.

edited 13th May '18 7:00:29 PM by Khfan429

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86517: May 13th 2018 at 7:03:12 PM

[up] Well since you actually watched the show fully you certainly have more credibility.

Also I'm annoyed that a character's basic-ass motivation & backstory is main-pain.

edited 13th May '18 7:03:43 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#86518: May 13th 2018 at 7:04:01 PM

You do realise that torture is illegal and immoral even if done against enemy combatants right? So it doesn’t matter if he was mistaken about the identity of the guy he tortured, he still deliberately tortured someone and is a war criminal because of it.

I’ll agree that Frank isn’t shown as squeaky clean, my problem is that he isn’t treated as the total monster that he clearly is.

edited 13th May '18 7:05:41 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#86519: May 13th 2018 at 7:07:53 PM

Well anyway, here's Franky VS The Devil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN59PQvvWQE

[tup]

edited 13th May '18 7:09:15 PM by Guy01

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#86520: May 13th 2018 at 7:11:31 PM

It's not as bad as Silas got it but it's still pretty bad in a lot of ways. One of them being that the torture and murder of innocent Afghans that Frank was tricked into (which doesn't fully absolve him either, given torturing and executing prisoners of war outside of the military jurisdiction is still pretty fucking bad) is basically just use to fuel his emotional pain and we never really get to see the Afghans as anything other than props to make the hero feel bad about himself.

One of the problems I had with the show is that it wants to have its cake and eat it too. It wants Frank to be a morally ambiguous anti-hero but also a lovable family man so it is very indecisive in how sympathetic Frank ends up being, which sends a mixed message.

There's a noticeable backpedal from DD season 2, which largely framed Frank's character arc as Frank's humanity being chipped away until he turns into his traditional vigilante sociopathic self by the end of it. No scene in the Punisher show ever really approaches Frank's character as grimly as the scene he executes the Blacksmith in DD season 2 (which has the whole narrative framing this as Frank's last chance of redemption and when he kills him, Frank's gone for good).

One of the most noticeable inconsistencies when it comes to Castle's sympathetic points is how he treats soldiers. In a handful of scenes he seems unwilling to gun them down because they're (like him) Just Following Orders, in other scenes he just guns them down with nary a worry or care.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#86521: May 13th 2018 at 7:17:16 PM

I fully accept that I found it particularly bad because of my strong feelings about crimes against humanity and war criminals, if a person doesn’t feel particularly strongly about such issues the show is going to be much more watchable.

Personally I felt Frank worked fine in Daredevil, of all the complaints I have about Daredevil season 2 Frank is not one of them, because the show at no point asks us to root for him.

But serious, can be we stop sayin Frank was tricked into torturing people, he didn’t know that the guy he was touring was a civilian, but if the guy he’d been torturing had been a Taliban shitbag that wouldn’t somehow make it okay or him any less of a war criminal who should rot in jail.

edited 13th May '18 7:18:55 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86522: May 13th 2018 at 7:18:41 PM

Eh every show has problems.

Nothings perfect.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Gault Laugh and grow dank! from beyond the kingdom Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: P.S. I love you
Laugh and grow dank!
#86523: May 13th 2018 at 7:22:14 PM

[up][up] I find myself generally in agreement. I thought Frank was a good villain and counterpoint to Daredevil's vigilantism in Season 2 of that show- he provides a strong counterpoint to Matt's idealism and strict code of morals. I never actually finished Punisher, I ended up dropping it partway through the season. Couldn't rightly tell you why, but I don't think I developed any strong sense of sympathy for any of the characters, least of all Frank Castle. That and the plot sort of just seemed to meander around a bit.

Frank Castle is an absolute trainwreck of a Human being, and apparently I don't find that particularly compelling to watch. Going into the series I thought I'd like it given I liked Daredevil, but apparently not.

edited 13th May '18 7:23:00 PM by Gault

yey
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#86524: May 13th 2018 at 7:36:10 PM

@Silasw: He was tricked into torturing and killing innocent Afghans, was my meaning. But as I said, partaking in those actions regardless is still pretty damn bad.

The problem of a Punisher show is something I've been observing ever since it was announced. Frank Castle's a mass-murdering sociopath. He works excellent as a antagonist as a result (which is why he works great in daredevil season 2), because it allows you to glimpse this demented mind while still having other characters to share the weight of the screentime and contrast him against. When you give him the protagonist role, you have two options: A) you leave him as a mass-murdering sociopath and end up with a extremely grim show because your main character is a monster, running into the risk of Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy B) you make him more human and sympathetic and risk losing the point of the character.

The netflix show went for route B and the result ended up a tad sketchy.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#86525: May 13th 2018 at 7:44:12 PM

Frank didn't kill any civilians as far as I recall. He killed enemy Taliban (active combatants) and an undercover agent (Madani's former partner, who was a good man but not a civilian).

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

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