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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#86476: May 13th 2018 at 2:42:34 PM

[up] How bad is he if it sounds like you despise him?

Just Makima.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#86477: May 13th 2018 at 2:55:03 PM

I think Jessica Jones season 2 is worth watching. I wouldn't consider it as good as the first season, but it's not a total trainwreck or anything.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#86478: May 13th 2018 at 3:14:32 PM

[up][up]

How bad is Karnak from Inhumans? Worse than the rest of the Inhuman Royal Family put together, to be frank.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#86479: May 13th 2018 at 3:31:52 PM

Oh Inhumans didn’t end with the royal family ending slavery, it ended with slavery ending due to the Inhumans all ending up on earth and under the jurisdiction of humans who wouldn’t tolerate slavery, I didn’t mean to imply that the royal family ever realised that their slave State was wrong and immoral.

I guess part of my problem with the Punisher is that it’s to real, we as a society have generally gotten the message that race-based slavery is wrong, we haven’t gotten the message that macho white men going around shooting thing is wrong.

That and as I said I could sympathise with the victims of the system, I liked many of the earth based humans and I could sympathise with Maximus, with the Punisher who could I sympathise with, the Afghans they murdered and that was it.

It probably also helped that it took time for all of the royal family to make clear that they were racist nutjobs bent on race-based slavery, Crystal came across as reasonable for a little bit if I remember right, as did Medusa and Black Bolt.

edited 13th May '18 3:33:26 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#86480: May 13th 2018 at 4:00:01 PM

we as a society have generally gotten the message that race-based slavery is wrong

...I mean I see your point regarding the Punisher but you'd be surprised how many people haven't gotten that down here in the US. And I could be wrong but I remember Crystal, Black Bolt, and Medusa right away being racist assholes.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86481: May 13th 2018 at 4:35:42 PM

Wasn't Maximus revealed to be a selfish prick?

So no Inumans had nothing, NOTHING!

Any claim that it is not anything other than 0 is false & wrong.

I haven't see Punisher yet but I know its leagues better than that literal dogshit.

[down] Fair point.

edited 13th May '18 4:38:11 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#86482: May 13th 2018 at 4:37:11 PM

Dammit man, misuse either "objectively" or "literal" but don't misuse them both in the same post.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#86483: May 13th 2018 at 4:47:29 PM

[up][up]

I mean sort of but I still felt he was infinitely more sympathetic than Black Bolt and company. Kinda helped that even Karnak alone was just that goddamn vile.

Seriously, I could rant so much about how I despise Karnak's portrayal in Inhumans. In any other series he'd be the villain, and not even a particularly interesting one at that.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#86484: May 13th 2018 at 4:50:00 PM

I haven't watched so I'd read a rant

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#86485: May 13th 2018 at 4:51:42 PM

So would I, you're pretty good at the smackdowns Adric.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#86486: May 13th 2018 at 4:52:54 PM

Just browse through the thread for the gist of my rants on the series. I swear, the only thing that made me keep watching was the sheer amount of hatred I felt for it and the curiosity I felt in seeing Scott Buck descend further and further into finding ways to make the show worse.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#86487: May 13th 2018 at 5:20:52 PM

I mean I see your point regarding the Punisher but you'd be surprised how many people haven't gotten that down here in the US.

I’m talking relatively, while the US still has a lot of issues connected to slavery and it seems immorality there isn’t a widespread movement calling for a return to slavery, there is a widespread movement in favour of angry macho white men to go around shooting their problems while taking no responsability for their crimes.

I could be wrong but I remember Crystal, Black Bolt, and Medusa right away being racist assholes.

Black Bolt certainly took time, I think Medusa went full asshole pretty quickly and I think Crystal did as well, but them being assholes was directed very much at Maximus, so it made me more sympathetic towards him.

Wasn't Maximus revealed to be a selfish prick?

So no Inumans had nothing, NOTHING!

Maximus became an asshole villain but you could understand how he came to be that, he was in many ways a much weaker version of Killmonger, having the supposed heroes ranting about how they were racially superior to him did wonders for his sympathy levels. Plus some of his followers deserved genuine sympathy, we got to see enough of the regular people of the Inhuman civilisation that we felt sympathy for them to.

I haven't see Punisher yet but I know its leagues better than that literal dogshit.

It’s not, it’s worse, your protagonist is a racist gun nut war criminal, you’re meant to feel bad for him because he murdered civilians in cold blood and it gives him nightmares, his buddies are just as horrible and there’s not even a sympathetic antagonist to root for. Frank’s a war criminal who wouldn’t be out of place as the villain in a WW 2 film.

The most heroic characters in the Punisher are the brief appearance by the Taliban.

edited 13th May '18 5:22:36 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#86488: May 13th 2018 at 5:23:50 PM

> The most heroic characters in the Punisher are the brief appearance by the Taliban.

OK, how did they make an oppressive group like the Taliban.heroic ?

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#86489: May 13th 2018 at 5:41:05 PM

They’re not, like they are in no way actually heroic, they just come across as sympathetic because Frank and his buddies are running around Afghanistan murdering afghan civilians.

It’s not that the show made the Taliban heroic, it just made the protagonists so much worse than them that you can feel some sympathy for the Taliban, in the end Frank is very much the murder happy racist war criminal that real life Taliban propaganda pretends American troops are.

The Taliban are heroic only in that they’re trying to stop Frank and we know that Frank is there to murder as many civilians as he can, because that’s what Frank does, and he enjoys it.

edited 13th May '18 5:45:38 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86490: May 13th 2018 at 5:45:10 PM

I feel when I do watch the show, the stuff your talking about is gonna look overblown.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#86491: May 13th 2018 at 5:48:38 PM

It really comes down to how strongly you feel about crimes against humanity, torture and deliberate murder of civilians, if it’s not a big deal to you you’ll probably have no problem with the show. If it’s something that matters to you than you’ll likely end up where I ended up, rooting for the Taliban to kill Frank because the world would be a better place if they did.

That was my biggest point of disgust with the show I think, I don’t want to be rooting for the Taliban, they’re fucking terrible people, I have no interest in watching a show that’s got such an awful protagonist that in a fight between him and the Taliban I’m rooting for the Taliban.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86492: May 13th 2018 at 5:51:51 PM

There was a test where they proved that the average person would be likely to commit atrocities if ordered to. Frank isn't culpable for the crimes he commited as a soldier under orders.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#86493: May 13th 2018 at 5:54:48 PM

That's the Milgram experiment, and yes it does prove that the average person will do horrible things if asked to by someone in authority.

But also soldiers cannot abdicate responsibility for committing war crimes by "just following orders", the nuremberg trials rejected this defence and their decision has been pretty influential iirc (I'm not a law student, this is just what I hear).

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86494: May 13th 2018 at 5:56:54 PM

Wait this is backstory stuff right?

[up][up] Magneto would have a problem with that.

edited 13th May '18 5:57:14 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86495: May 13th 2018 at 5:58:54 PM

Yeah. Do you remember that story that Frank's old CO (the one played by Clancy Brown who was revealed to be part of the conspiracy that led to his family's death) told about Frank single handedly going into an enemy base and wiping them all out to save his platoon.

We actually get to see that one in a flashback. That's probably the situation they are talking about.

One Strip! One Strip!
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#86496: May 13th 2018 at 6:05:25 PM

[up]X4 Except Frank broke military law to commit said crimes, he deliberately violated the standing orders of military law so that he could commit war crimes, that’s not following orders, that’s being a murder happy loon.

Soilders aren’t average people, they’re specifically trained and taught to not commit war crimes.

[up][up] Yeah it’s in flashbacks, so this isn’t been damaged Punished Frank, this is happy family man Frank that’s going around murdering civilians.

edited 13th May '18 6:08:01 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86497: May 13th 2018 at 6:09:24 PM

That's all pretty accurate.

Frank's never been a nice or sympathetic guy even in the Max comics before his family was slain.

Even when they were alive he never cared much for them, even getting a divorce, & its outright stated he's using their deaths as an excuse to wage a crusade against evil to satisfy his bloodlust.

The man's always been a psycho, what makes him rootable is that he only target the horrendous & deserving.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#86498: May 13th 2018 at 6:15:15 PM

Having never seen the show, could someone please clarify just what it was that Frank did?

Oh God! Natural light!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#86499: May 13th 2018 at 6:19:43 PM

Rob pretty much explained some of it.

I'll probably rewatch Punisher sometime soon, I'm already planning on rewatching some of the Netflix shows in the future...of course I say I'm gonna watch a lot of things so who knows. I'll see if my opinion changes on rewatch, but no matter my opinion on it, I'll still put it much higher than Inhumans. Looking through my old posts on each episode of the show, I was outright calling Crystal and Medusa bigots by the third episode or so, so yeah I hated them right away and thought they were shit. Though I find it ironic how I was at first ranting about feeling like Crystal was the worst character before Karnak's awfulness escalated in the last couple of episodes.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#86500: May 13th 2018 at 6:21:15 PM

I don't really remember what story Clancy Brown told, honestly. I'm kind of curious how "killing civilians" factors into this.

Oh God! Natural light!

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