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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#86276: May 7th 2018 at 4:41:47 PM

Peter and Shuri meeting is one of my biggest wants as well.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#86277: May 7th 2018 at 6:00:41 PM

For Doctor Strange, I feel like (as a longtime Doctor Strange) the thing is that Doctor Strange's appeal as a character is entirely unconnected to his origin. His origin is merely serviceable, to the point it's almost never retold in the comics, staying mostly the same and needing little refreshing other than glancing reminders of "he used to be a surgeon, his hands are fucked, now he's a mighty sorcerer".

This is because the appeal of Doctor Strange is being this master wizard floating around the cosmos getting involved in cosmic shit and pulling off crazy spells out of his sleeve to save mankind in increasingly more convoluted magic duels while we watch on in awe.

So, in truth, nobody wants to see him as before he was a wizard, learning the ropes. The entire appeal of his character is being this vast all-knowing sorcerer casually taking down gods with magic spells. The Establishing Character Moment of a Doctor Strange movie shouldn't be him doing a brain surgery while guessing obscure music trivia, it should be him floating across a door in suburban New York while sitting in the lotus position and drinking tea and telling the people in the house that they have a demon that he's about to exorcise.

It'd be like focusing Doctor Who on The Doctor's time as a young student in Gallifrey. That's not why we're here. We're here to see The Doctor, adventurer extraordinaire, having weird adventures on space.

If it was up to me....

Plot: I'd make a Doctor Strange movie have Doctor Strange as a already established and veteran Master of the Mystic Arts operating solo, but he's shunned by the other sorcerers for his previous actions before he became a sorcerer. So he's a Master of the Mystic Arts and already a quite famous one but every other sorcerer treats him with disregard for his past as a doctor and his sheer dickery in the past. So we first meet Doctor Strange as a sorcerer helping people, but clearly an outcast trying to atone for his past.

In one of his casual demon banishings across the world he'd meet Wong, an old friend. They'd catch up and talk about old times, during which we'd learn Doctor Strange has been banished from Kamar-Taj for some previous assholery and is trying to prove them that he's changed. After they chat for a bit, Wong is summoned back to Kamar-Taj in urgent business.

In Kamar-Taj, The Ancient One leads the world's sorcerers against dark forces among a council of sorcerers. Among that council there's the likes of: Wong, Baron Mordo, Brother Voodoo, Doctor Druid, El Médico Místico and Count Kaoz and other assorted Marvel sorcerers. They discuss among themselves whether Doctor Strange should be allowed back in their midst, with Wong arguing in his favor and Mordo being deadset against him but the council of sorcerers being overall evenly split with no consensus being reached. Besides, the Ancient One tells them the reason they've been summoned there is because there's something weird going on: people all over the world are being assaulted in their dreams by dark creatures. Mordo dismisses this.

Shortly thereafter, main villain Nightmare invades the dreams of every person on earth sleeping, planning to plunge the entire world in a eternal nightmarish dream to fuel his power. In a big sorcerer battle sequence, the Ancient One and the other sorcerers are unable to repel him, so the Ancient One forms a mystical barrier between Nightmare and the rest of mankind which locks Nightmare's area of influence solely to Kamar-Taj, but this spell is basically taking all of the Ancient One's power and slowly killing him. In such dire straits, it's all hands on deck, so Wong calls Doctor Strange back to help save Ancient One, making it a race against the clock for Strange to save Ancient One and the world before Ancient One dies.

So Wong, Doctor Strange and Baron Mordo dive into the Nightmare realm (while the other sorcerers aid Ancient One in his dream barrier) to face Nightmare's endless mind-fucking. In the Nightmare realm, Strange and the audience confront his assholeish deeds from the past and must overcome those memories to get through Nightmare's...well...nightmares and stop him from conquering mankind. So we basically see Strange's origin over the course of the film as he and Wong face many trials in the nightmare realm and their own inner demons in some very bombastic magic Battle At The Center Of The Mind.

Naturally, over the course of the film, Strange overcomes his inner demons and temptations hurled against him with the help of Wong, but Mordo falls prey to his temptations and switches sides. In the Darkest Hour, Mordo abandons Strange having turned into a acolyte of Nightmare, Ancient One's strength gives out and he dies to Ascend to a Higher Plane of Existence leaving Strange to face Nightmare alone alongside Wong. In the climax Strange redeems himself and proves his humility by calling upon the other sorcerers and coordinating their skills to find a way to banish Nightmare back to his realm somehow and defeat his acolyte Baron Mordo.

Now, having redeemed himself, Doctor Strange is allowed back in Kamar-Taj and takes his place among the other sorcerers (taking Mordo's place in the council, given he'd turn into a dark sorcerer). Wong comments there will be a need for a future Sorcerer Supreme now that the Ancient One is dead, leaving up the Sequel Hook.

Post-Credits scene: Baron Mordo, floating in the aether after the final battle, is found by Dormammu. Mordo swears allegiance to Dormammu as Dormammu comments his interest on earth and Doctor Strange.

Love Interest: Ideally, none, as I'd focus the movie on Strange and Wong's friendship. But if it has to have someone, i'd have a mysterious and elusive Clea (niece to Dormammu) aiding Strange through the film in the Nightmare Realm, providing him with advice and help as they develop a bond.

Villains: I'd have the main villain be fabled Doctor Strange villain Nightmare, who's basically Freddy Krueguer as a elder god: Nightmare is a cruel and sadistic entity who feasts upon people's fears and therefore enjoys fucking with their minds to fuel himself. He'd hurl every sort of fear and temptation against Strange, Wong and Mordo.

Baron Mordo would be a secondary antagonist because Nightmare would tempt him with images of his greatness and his fear and being replaced, causing him to eventually switch sides and ending up as Nightmare's The Dragon.

Secondary Characters: Wong, Strange's steadfast and loyal friend, is the main focus of the film as far as secondary characters, but the Ancient One also gets a bit of fleshing out as this old and wise guardian of sorcery. The remainder sorcerers are memorable small participations.

Character Arc: Film would primarily focus on Strange coming to terms with his past and facing his inner demons as he atones for the things he's done. We'd also get a lot of focus on his his friendships lift him up (particularly his friendship with the Ancient One and Wong) from his hubristic assholeishness of the past.

Thus, "Doctor Strange" by Gaon.

edited 7th May '18 6:03:29 PM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
TheAirman Brightness from The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Brightness
#86278: May 7th 2018 at 6:02:42 PM

I would love to see Mantis join the Avengers for a bit, or hell just follow her around Earth and see what lulz are to be had. But then I also just want to see more Mantis, period. She’s adorable.

Also kind of a little bit incredibly goddamn hax. One of the, what, four people who are actually useful against Thanos?

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#86279: May 7th 2018 at 6:34:40 PM

So what does anyone think of the so called Marvel "humor" and the use of bathos in otherwise serious scenes?

"Mai waifu."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#86280: May 7th 2018 at 6:58:50 PM

I'm here for action and humor in the first place, so it doesn't bother me.

edited 7th May '18 6:59:02 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#86281: May 7th 2018 at 7:08:18 PM

I think it depends heavily on the movie itself. Not all the Marvel movies that are funny use humor in the same way.

edited 7th May '18 7:08:27 PM by KnownUnknown

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#86282: May 7th 2018 at 7:43:08 PM

I sure do enjoy laughing

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#86283: May 7th 2018 at 9:47:05 PM

Little boy T'challa and little gal Nakia deleted scene!

Kid T'challa says he will personally punch out the Panther God if he comes to claim his father for death. Reminds me of The Ultimates (2015) where T'challa personally overpowers an Eldritch Abomination Tiger God, representing humanity's first fears, and commands it temporarily, becoming equal in power to Galactus surprised.

edited 7th May '18 9:48:22 PM by Tuckerscreator

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#86284: May 7th 2018 at 10:12:17 PM

These deleted scenes have all been aces.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#86285: May 7th 2018 at 11:01:29 PM

The only Marvel movies where I found the humor actively distracting were Age of Ultron (too much) and Guardians 2 (not the kind of humor I like).

This song needs more love.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#86286: May 7th 2018 at 11:15:16 PM

Yeah AOU is where it bothered me the most, mostly because it kept undercutting Ultron as a serious threat. I felt Infinity War handled it better. It has a ton of humor, but most of the time it doesn't involve Thanos and it isn't during scenes that are meant to be serious or tense.

People complain about the humor in the Guardians but that never bothered me since the Guardians movies are comedies anyway. Same with Thor: Ragnarok, though there was one scene near the end (the destruction of Asgard) where I felt Korg getting a joke was unnecessary and a little self-indulgent.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#86287: May 7th 2018 at 11:18:52 PM

Small parts of Ragnarok had the humor undercutting the action (Korg's one joke at the end, Banner falling onto the Bifrost) but I remembered upon rewatching thinking that for the most part, they balanced the jokes really well with the drama until the end. Guardians Vol. 2 had really annoying jokes there (I'm not a fan of toilet humor) but the drama was pretty much kept in without interference from the humor. Age of Ultron and Doctor Strange are really where the jokes undercut a lot of things or felt unnecessary, especially the former.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#86288: May 8th 2018 at 12:11:21 AM

Humor can be a vital element to the overall enjoyment of a film, but it can easily take you out of the moment. External laughter can ruin a more genuine emotion, and in many cases it makes it so that the movie itself doesn't have any respect for it's characters or what is actually happening. As mentioned, Korg's dialogue as Asgard is being destroyed prevents us from really connecting with what the main characters are feeling. Similarly when Thor threw the ball and it hit him in the head, it's a gutbustingly funny moment but no one, not even himself, even responds to what just happened, making it a distracting joke in what should be an important conversation in recruiting Valkyrie to his side.

In comparison, Steve Rogers spends the first half of The First Avenger in amusingly embarrassing moments (constant ridicule before and after the transformation, plus the USO costume) but all of that factors into him overcoming the humiliation. rising above it and earning the respect of his peers. The humor is not for its own sake.

One moment in Doctor Strange that actively annoyed me was when the Ancient One sent him on that exposition journey through the different dimensions, and then humorously shuts him outside. Strange spends a minute at the door wailing like a child until they open it again, where he falls in and does a high pitched "Thank you!" This is the main character being reduced to a pitiful punchline for no other reason than to get a joke in. The trailer depicting that scene leaves more emotional impact.

As a result I feel that the better MCU films are the ones that lean on the more serious side, Iron Man 1, all Captain America films, Black Panther and Infinity War.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86289: May 8th 2018 at 12:17:40 AM

He wasn't there for a minute, he was there for 7 hours.

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#86290: May 8th 2018 at 12:27:05 AM

It was less than a minute movie time, which is what I'm talking about. If "wailing outside the door" was supposed to be indicative of his strength of character you need to dedicate more screen time to it.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#86291: May 8th 2018 at 3:07:57 AM

Baby Nakia was cute. Plus, that explains how she knew to sneak into the catacombs to steal the heart shaped herb later.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#86292: May 8th 2018 at 4:37:32 AM

To me the one movie which overshot on the humour is Thor Ragnarök. And don't get me wrong here, there are jokes I don't like in the other movies - ie the potty jokes in Gotg Vol 2, or the language joke in Age of Ultron - but all of those movies managed to pull back in time for the emotional moments the breath. Ragnarök didn't.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#86293: May 8th 2018 at 7:58:18 AM

One moment in Doctor Strange that actively annoyed me was when the Ancient One sent him on that exposition journey through the different dimensions, and then humorously shuts him outside. Strange spends a minute at the door wailing like a child until they open it again, where he falls in and does a high pitched "Thank you!" This is the main character being reduced to a pitiful punchline for no other reason than to get a joke in. The trailer depicting that scene leaves more emotional impact.
That was a huge turning point in Strange's character. Up until then, he'd been an arrogant prick whose attitude was that he was always right about everything and nothing bad was ever his fault. His injured hands are entirely his fault, because he crashed his car while driving like an asshole, but he blames the "inferior" surgeon for failing to repair them perfectly. He blames his physical therapist for physical therapy being hard. He hunts down the Ancient One looking for a miracle cure, then refuses to believe in miracles when he finds her.

The whole bit with him pounding at the door for hours and begging to be let back in, then saying "thank you" when he finally is, isn't just a cheap joke. It's the first time he's actually admitted that he needs help from someone who is more knowledgeable than him, rather than berating others for not meeting his standards.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#86294: May 8th 2018 at 8:22:41 AM

Exactly...he needed to be brought low in order to be able to learn.

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#86295: May 8th 2018 at 8:25:29 AM

It still feels incredibly jarring and distracting, I will concede to your point though.

"Mai waifu."
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#86296: May 8th 2018 at 9:48:23 AM

I suppose it could have been framed to have less humor in the scene. Personally I still think it worked, but they could have done a more serious thing where they open the door to find him still waiting there, carry him inside, and he earnestly thanks them.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#86297: May 8th 2018 at 10:38:16 AM

^ Precisely. The type of humor demeans the character, making it so that the movie itself does not show him respect. The premise of him spending hours begging to be taught is separate from the childlike wailing. One of the strengths of Iron Man 1 is that Tony retains the same basic personality after his experience in the cave, but filtered through a more humbled viewpoint. Even the shenanigans of building his armor components shows him trying to keep his dignity, which pays off as eventually the pieces come together into a working prototype.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#86298: May 8th 2018 at 11:13:35 AM

True, but Tony is also framed as mostly callous and not downright mean. Doctor Strange is different, he enjoys humiliating doctors which can't keep up with him, and he doesn't really see the patients as human beings. He needs an extradose of humiliation before you can even begin feeling for him.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#86299: May 8th 2018 at 12:11:45 PM

Swn: I agree in Raganrok, I feel some jokes, like the "wait" when being capture by Sultur or the whole weird monologue in sakaar distracting.

In fact it was pretty dificult for me to care about asgard because of that.

In general, I feel the problem is that Marvel dosent inject enought gravity to the situation that are set, meaning it deflect all the tention. I have this sense that MCU in general dosent care about the story in anything but to prop the hero so there can be a sequel.

edited 8th May '18 12:17:55 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#86300: May 8th 2018 at 12:23:56 PM

Not a feeling I have at all. If anything there is a lot of care put into the characters and their fates. And at its best (meaning: Usually when Marcus and Mc Feely put together a script) the humour is entirely the result of different characters clashing with each other.


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