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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#85726: Apr 26th 2018 at 6:43:50 PM

But the weaponized rhinos were rad. Only way Black Panther would lose its novelty is if every other new work aped the same kind of Afrofuturism for its style and that's just not happening. Even in an ideal world there'd be enough different aesthetics going around that Black Panther is likely going to be a high mark of Afrofuturistic art for a good while. It helps that it's just a very solid and well-made film across the board regardless of subject matter.

edited 26th Apr '18 6:45:30 PM by AlleyOop

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#85727: Apr 26th 2018 at 6:49:38 PM

Novelty? What novelty? Unless African representation and a distinctly African story is somehow a novelty.

Yes, that is novelty. And novelty can be good which in this case, it is.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#85728: Apr 26th 2018 at 6:50:29 PM

No offense but that reads as kinda racist.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#85729: Apr 26th 2018 at 6:52:00 PM

I do have the sense that Black Panther is going to go from being seen as groundbreaking to being seens as Fair for Its Day pretty quickly (i.e., within the next 5-10 years). Things like Wakandans speaking Xhosa (which is a little like a movie having Pakistanis speaking Mongolian) are going to become more glaring with time.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#85730: Apr 26th 2018 at 6:52:32 PM

"Dumbest" is a word that here means "greatest".

No, it's dumb especially since we're in an era that should know better than to portray rhinos like expendable cannon fodder.

It's also dumb because why would you use rhinos to fight when you have futuristic weapons?

I mean Wakanda's weapon design in general is pretty stupid though.

I do have the sense that Black Panther is going to go from being seen as groundbreaking to being seens as Fair for Its Day pretty quickly (i.e., within the next 5-10 years). Things like Wakandans speaking Xhosa (which is a little like a movie having Pakistanis speaking Mongolian) are going to become more glaring with time.

Yep. That's one of the factors I was thinking of too when I said it won't age as well as people think.

edited 26th Apr '18 6:53:36 PM by MadSkillz

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#85731: Apr 26th 2018 at 6:55:27 PM

No offense but that reads as kinda racist.

I don't see how because a movie like Black Panther is ground-breaking hence novel. If anything I'm giving BP a compliment there for saying it's one of the first of hopefully many movies to portray Africans in a better light.

edited 26th Apr '18 6:56:19 PM by MadSkillz

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#85732: Apr 26th 2018 at 6:58:45 PM

However, the issues that may lead to it being seens as Fair for Its Day relatively soon don't change the fact that Black Panther is very significant now, and immensely meaningful for a lot of people. A major action blockbuster set in a futuristic African country with a predominantly black cast, and which is now one of the higest-grossing movies ever, is not something that should be dismissed. It's unquestionably struck a chord.

It's important in and of itself, and even more so if it manages to pave the way for more diverse films by showing Hollywood that diversity pays off at the box office.

edited 26th Apr '18 7:01:40 PM by Galadriel

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#85733: Apr 26th 2018 at 7:01:24 PM

[up]No offense but that reads as kinda racist.

Yes, yes it is.

Or perhaps to avoid the negative quality, it's deliberately unapologetically directly racial in both its politics as well as well as storytelling. It's about race, heritage, consequences of past racial behavior, and how to forge a new future bridging the past of traditions with those related to them but not necessarily approving.

It speaks to a huge number of people who haven't seen themselves in the protagonists the way they have with T'Challa.

edited 26th Apr '18 7:02:09 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#85734: Apr 26th 2018 at 7:01:27 PM

Calling it novelty still reads as dismissive as fuck of the sheer accomplishments it's already achieved.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#85735: Apr 26th 2018 at 7:02:36 PM

Folks are thinking about about the rhinos in terms of being fielded like a full scale army. That's not what they're for. They're for secret border defense. Which is no small feat considering how tough rhinos are to train. Wakanda has deliberately not fought or waged an open war for centuries.

edited 26th Apr '18 7:02:59 PM by Tuckerscreator

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#85736: Apr 26th 2018 at 7:04:23 PM

Yeah the rhinos are more police attack dogs.

There purpose is purely domestic.

[up][up] Over a billion in dollars.

edited 26th Apr '18 7:04:52 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#85737: Apr 26th 2018 at 7:06:32 PM

Calling it novelty still reads as dismissive as fuck of the sheer accomplishments it's already achieved.

-shrugs- I can't control how you read things. I'm not being dismissive just cynical.

It's novel because it's ground-breaking in a lot of areas but my main point is that it's going to have a lot less staying power once other movies catch on.

Galadriel says 5-10 years. I'll be more lenient and say 10-15 years from now.

edited 26th Apr '18 7:07:43 PM by MadSkillz

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#85738: Apr 26th 2018 at 7:09:40 PM

Folks are thinking about about the rhinos in terms of being fielded like a full scale army. That's not what they're for. They're for secret border defense. Which is no small feat considering how tough rhinos are to train. Wakanda has deliberately not fought or waged an open war for centuries.

It's still pretty damn ridiculous. Why don't they just use vehicles?

And like I said rhinos being portrayed like cannon fodder leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

edited 26th Apr '18 7:09:57 PM by MadSkillz

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#85739: Apr 26th 2018 at 7:13:05 PM

Not even over a billion. Over 1.3 billion.

The Rhinos were not cannon fodder. Not a single one died in that battle. Cannon fodder is just random mooks you throw out to let the cannons hit, that's not what they were doing.

edited 26th Apr '18 7:13:26 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#85740: Apr 26th 2018 at 7:15:27 PM

It's still pretty damn ridiculous. Why don't they just use vehicles?

Because obvious assault vehicles invite enemies and raise questions about how a third-world farming country has the resources to build and fuel them.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#85741: Apr 26th 2018 at 7:17:48 PM

Because obvious assault vehicles invite enemies and raise questions about how a third-world farming country has the resources to build and fuel them.

How many rhinos do you think they have versus how many vehicles do you think they'd need?

Hell, they don't even need assault vehicles. They can just use regular cars and strap laser turrets to the back and it'd still be a lot more efficient than rhinos.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#85742: Apr 26th 2018 at 7:18:19 PM

I'm not being dismissive just cynical.

And that's an unhealthy amount of cynicism being applied there. I'm an incredibly cynical person but damn, even I have limits.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#85743: Apr 26th 2018 at 7:18:34 PM

[up][up]Because shut up, rhinos are cool, that's why.

edited 26th Apr '18 7:18:52 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#85744: Apr 26th 2018 at 7:29:34 PM

It wasn't cool enough for Rule of Cool to apply to me.

Maybe if they were dinosaurs then okay that'd be pretty awesome.

edited 26th Apr '18 7:29:43 PM by MadSkillz

TheAirman Brightness from The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Brightness
#85745: Apr 26th 2018 at 7:29:59 PM

Rhinos are cool, sure, but they’re not the Might of the Jabari.

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#85746: Apr 26th 2018 at 7:31:25 PM

[up] Best tribe.

M'Baku, Killmonger and Okoye were the best characters characters in the movie too.

Anyone that refuses my claim is my enemy.

edited 26th Apr '18 7:32:13 PM by MadSkillz

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#85747: Apr 26th 2018 at 7:38:39 PM

So, watched Doctor Strange. I wasn't thrilled with magic seeming to consist entirely of shooting sparks at things and totally-not-Inception shifting landscapes, but other than that, it was pretty good!

Strange himself is an interesting character. He starts as an arrogant prick, and... never really stops being that, but still manages to grow into more than just that. Probably the best single-movie character development in the MCU. (I'd argue that Tony Stark has the best character arc across the MCU as a whole, but his takes half a dozen movies.) I liked that the change was gradual — he didn't just have an epiphany and suddenly stop being a dick, he didn't hit rock bottom and emerge as a kinder, more patient person, etc etc. It flowed well.

The movie also benefited from being a lot more focused that a lot of the MCU. There are really only four characters: Strange, Mordo, the Ancient One, and Kaecilius. (There are a few others, but they're all Satellite Characters or Dormammu, who is more a force than a person.) That means each character had plenty of time to shine, as opposed to other MCU movies that are fitting in a dozen or so main characters. It also helped that they were all superbly acted, particularly Strange and the Ancient One.

The plot was pretty basic in a lot of ways, but I liked the way they threw some curveballs in. When Strange first arrives in Kamar Taj, the Ancient One doesn't fuck around with cryptic shenanigans for long before punching his soul out of his body, which was a refreshing take on the mystic mentor. It gets you to think that since they're not doing the usual "are you sure you want to do this?" dance, she must be pretty serious about recruiting and training him. Then she kicks him out. And it's not a secret test of character, or anything like that! She was actually legitimately kicking him out! When she lets him in, it's because she's changed her mind, not because it was part of some master plan. The use of the time loop at the end was also genuinely clever, though I'm not actually sure why Dormammu didn't just pulp him after he broke the loop. Maybe Mystical Cosmic Beings are like, physically unable to break bargains?

The Cloak of Levitation was unexpectedly fun. The amount of personality they managed to pack into something with no face and no voice is pretty damned impressive. The damn thing was more competent than Strange was for most of its screentime, which has the odd effect of making Strange look both bad (getting upstaged by a piece of fabric) and good (gained the loyalty of such a powerful relic) simultaneously.

I already mentioned that I didn't much care for the visuals, and that's largely true, but there were a few exceptions. The "doors to other places" in the New York Sanctum were very cool looking, and I liked the way they got used in the fight scene. The semi-visible swords that the Zealots used were also really badass looking — they seemed to be chunks of smeared reality, which is an interesting visual effect and totally fits with their whole "gaining power from a being from an outer dimension" schtick. Sparks-and-Inception were still pretty lame, though.

I'd rank it as about equal to the first two Iron Man movies. Not quite up to the level of Guardians of the Galaxy or Civil War, but definitely one of the better movies in the MCU.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#85748: Apr 26th 2018 at 9:44:11 PM

[up] "Thinks Doctor Strange is good, but Black Panther is just ok."

hoo boy, if you thought you needed to prepare for hazing before... tongue

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#85749: Apr 26th 2018 at 9:44:57 PM

Dammit.

Eight hours before I see the movie, just eight freaking hours, and I did the thing where I pop into the spoiler thread completely by accident and see something.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#85750: Apr 26th 2018 at 9:46:27 PM

[up]That's happened to me a few times but thankfully nothing too major has been spoiled for me as a result.


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