TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Marvel Cinematic Universe

Go To

Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#85676: Apr 26th 2018 at 9:45:12 AM

The very next scene after Shuri complains about the ceremony is the king of the Jabari tribe calling her out at disrespectful.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#85677: Apr 26th 2018 at 9:45:26 AM

Half Wakandan on his dad's side
Well, true, but we know nothing about his mother. Like, literally nothing. What happened to her after his father was killed? Is she still around? If not, what's her deal? If so, what's Killmonger's relationship with her like?

Shuri cheesed me off as well, but more when she makes a wisecrack at the coronation which is... I can barely imagine how monumentally disrespectful that is
I didn't actually mind that too much, mostly because the crowd seemed to take it well. If she had legitimately pissed people off then that'd be one thing, but they seemed to agree that it was a joke in good humor, rather than mortally offensive or anything.

The plot of Black Panther is basically:

Killmonger: "This country of yours, beautiful and majestic it may be, is kind of fucked up and has some damn problems, specifically with its isolationism. I'm gonna take over and end that by declaring war on the world."

T'Challa: "You're going too far, but the basic gist of what you're saying is right."

I never got the impression that Killmonger actually gave a shit about Wakanda except as a means to an ends (fixing the racial injustice in the rest of the world). One of the first things he does is literally burn down one of their most important traditions, after all. The fact that he tries to ensure that he'll be the last Black Panther shows that he doesn't care about Wakanda, its history or its legacy. For him, it's just a path to power. Yeah, he gets a little nostalgic about "the most beautiful sunsets in the world" at the end, but I think that's more about his relationship with his father than it has to do with Wakanda.

And T'Challa's change of heart about Wakandan foreign policy is less about accepting that Killmonger had a point and more about him realizing that previous kings (and his father in particular) weren't right about everything. His objections to Nakia's point about helping the outside world was basically "Wakanda has always stood apart and that's worked pretty well so far". That also goes all the way back to Shuri's comment in the very beginning of the movie (about the gadgets she'd given him) to the effect of "just because it works doesn't mean it can't be improved". Combine those two sentiments and he's more willing to change Wakandan policy, even against all tradition.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#85678: Apr 26th 2018 at 9:50:23 AM

One thing that really rankles me about Black Panther is the bit where Killmonger dies and says "like my ancestors who jumped from slave ships" or something and I wanted someone to tell him to shut the hell up. How is your situation similar in the slightest? Yeah, you had a bit of a rough upbringing but you tried to declare war on the entire world. Do not act like you're the injured party here.

I had a very poignant conversation with someone - an activist - after the movie about how that line sums up the tragedy of Killmonger’s character very well: it’s very telling that, when faced with a grand history and on the cusp of the world that just might be able to change, the only image Killmonger are people who died in misery. Not the kings they were, not he freedom fighters they became, but those who were lost to the brutality before it could be overthrown. That’s the only way he’ll allow himself to see the world, and it informs all his actions.

Or in short, the fact that his situation isn’t similar and his actions have far outstripped his sympathies is the entire point of the line, and the character. He’s let himself to be too consumed with hate to see the world in anything other than a hateful way.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#85679: Apr 26th 2018 at 9:55:11 AM

I never got the impression that Killmonger actually gave a shit about Wakanda except as a means to an ends (fixing the racial injustice in the rest of the world). One of the first things he does is literally burn down one of their most important traditions, after all. The fact that he tries to ensure that he'll be the last Black Panther shows that he doesn't care about Wakanda, its history or its legacy. For him, it's just a path to power. Yeah, he gets a little nostalgic about "the most beautiful sunsets in the world" at the end, but I think that's more about his relationship with his father than it has to do with Wakanda.

It might be a bit of both. There's also his training informing his actions a little (as Ross suggests). I mean, it's entirely possible that even if his kick everyone's ass plan fails and Wakanda gets bombed into oblivion, Killmonger will still be ok with that because this is the country that abandoned him. He wants revenge on everyone after all.

Now, if only we could convince him that Tony Stark is to blame for everything. We'd kill two birds with one stone.tongue

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85680: Apr 26th 2018 at 9:55:37 AM

[up][up] That's a very good point and a very insightful reading. But I really got the impression from the tone of the movie scene (the music, T'Challa's reaction, how the line is delivered) that we were supposed to feel sad for him in a sort of Magneto way and I really think the movie failed at making him reach that level.

edited 26th Apr '18 9:55:50 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#85681: Apr 26th 2018 at 10:01:02 AM

I feel like Killmonger succeeds at being tragic, but not sympathetic. He reminds me of the sweet, gifted kid who grows up to be a brutal gangbanger in a rough neighborhood - he’s both an inexcusable monster and a sad example of wasted potential.

I remember after the movie came out the phrase “I knew a Killmonger growing up” or similar was trending a little among black viewers: it’s a relateable tragedy in the inner city.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#85682: Apr 26th 2018 at 10:09:07 AM

It meant that the challenge was still ongoing as neither combatant had died or yielded, so she was theoretically duty-bound to stand aside and let it conclude without interference. Instead she attacks him. Maybe the idea was that he was cheating by having his warriors attack T'Challa instead of sticking to one-on-one combat?

Yes, it’s pretty spelled out. T’challa’s first words to Killmonger at the Mound are how he never surrendered the duel or died. Then Okoye urges W’kabi to stay back because the challenge isn’t over... until W’kabi orders a charge and Killmonger states he’s not resuming the challenge, breaking the rules and prompting Okoye to lead the Dora uprising. She never “arbitrarily” broke from Killmonger until it was clear he would not respect the challenge’s decrees.

their warriors fight with spears and knives — but they're super advanced highly technological spears and knives, trust us!)

I mean, we literally saw those spears shoot down planes and rip apart cars, so I dunno how much more evidence of their technological advancement can be shown.

Also super-advanced space civilization Asgard fights with swords and hammers.

though honestly I was confused by the whole "exile tribe" thing. Do they have vibranium hypertech or not? It doesn't seem like they do

...the Jabari being adverse towards technology was stated in every scene of theirs. These prior complaints of “the movie wasn’t clear enough” really don’t hold up well when obvious and repeatedly shown character traits like this get missed.

[down]The latter half of the sentence doesn’t appear to change the question. I did not deliberately ignore it.

edited 26th Apr '18 10:45:27 AM by Tuckerscreator

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85683: Apr 26th 2018 at 10:37:42 AM

...the Jabari being adverse towards technology was stated in every scene of theirs. These prior complaints of “the movie wasn’t clear enough” really don’t hold up well when obvious and repeatedly shown character traits like this get missed.

Jovian's point, which you've ignored note , is that that is the impression given by the movie but that it doesn't match up with the mountain clan, armed with basically medieval weapons, turning the tide against the Wakandan border tribe who are all using super scifi tech.

And if that sci-fi tech is not able to match this middle ages tech level army, it only reinforces one of his other points about how super-assegai and armoured rhinos are signficantly less useful than actual guns and tanks.

edited 26th Apr '18 10:42:17 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#85684: Apr 26th 2018 at 11:11:55 AM

Luke Cage is super-fast and super-jumpy too? I guess those come with the territory of super-strength, unless Dr. Burstein's procedure skipped leg day. Also, June 22nd release date is good.

Also:

How is your situation similar in the slightest? Yeah, you had a bit of a rough upbringing but you tried to declare war on the entire world. Do not act like you're the injured party here.

But he had a spear stuck through his ribs, how was he not the injured party?

edited 26th Apr '18 11:12:15 AM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#85685: Apr 26th 2018 at 11:20:34 AM

I have to ask, what other hero or property would be good for netflix universe?.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#85686: Apr 26th 2018 at 11:45:35 AM

Netflix Hellcat and adapt the 2016 series where she opens a temp agency for supers.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#85687: Apr 26th 2018 at 11:48:50 AM

Honestly, currently none. Netflix has to proof first that they are able to uphold quality for more than one season.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#85688: Apr 26th 2018 at 11:56:30 AM

Moon Knight and goddamn Blade have been waiting their hour for eons.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#85689: Apr 26th 2018 at 12:33:42 PM

I never really followed Moon Knight, but a Blade series would be pretty damn awesome.

Shang Chi could be pretty cool too.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#85690: Apr 26th 2018 at 12:46:03 PM

So, I have a general issue with the Netflix shows due to the combination of their separation from the MCU, coupled with the overall grittiness. Which makes me not really interested in any characters appearing in them, both because it means that those characters will never be in the MCU and because of it relatedly means they probably won't be involved in their comics' counterparts more "lighthearted" or "fantastical" moments.

I think this particularly an issue with Trish/Patsy, because of how fluffy her great recent series was. And like with Daredevil at least, while he's had some lighter moments, he's pretty gritty in general..

With that said, I would be kind of interested in Moon Knight (although I'd rather see what the MCU would do with him), since he's street level and gritty to begin with. And although I'd also be interested in vampires and that kind of supernatural thing fitting into the MCU, Blade would definitely work in the Netflix 'verse. Lastly, The Hood might be interesting as a Villain Protagonist in the Netflix shows.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#85691: Apr 26th 2018 at 12:49:08 PM

I think the grittiness is an overall strength of the netflix shows since it makes for a different type of atmosphere from the films and opens up the possibility to tell different kinds of stories. I get that might make it difficult to tell some of the more whimsical/"fun" stories those characters might be known for however.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#85692: Apr 26th 2018 at 12:50:00 PM

I feel like Killmonger succeeds at being tragic, but not sympathetic.
That's an excellent way to put it, yeah.

Yes, it’s pretty spelled out.
I suppose what I find confusing about it is that she didn't, say, defend T'Challa so he could reach Killmonger and complete the duel, she just straight starts trying to kill him. She's so honorbound for the rest of the movie that I thought she would have tried to preserve the integrity of the duel, not jump straight to "you cheated, so I'm going to kill you".

I mean, we literally saw those spears shoot down planes and rip apart cars, so I dunno how much more evidence of their technological advancement can be shown.
My point is that they just seem to be "spears, but made out of phlebotinum", which isn't actually technological at all. That they can rip apart cars and such is because they're made of supermetal, not because it's an application of highly advanced Wakandan technology like their energy blasters. Wakanda has presumably been using vibranium spears for centuries.

Also super-advanced space civilization Asgard fights with swords and hammers.
If you go back and look at my comments on the Thor movies, I complained pretty extensively about Asgard's imagery for exactly that reason. If they're gods using magic, that's one thing. If they're Sufficiently Advanced Aliens, that's another thing. Half-ass mixing the two I think is silly.

The latter half of the sentence doesn’t appear to change the question. I did not deliberately ignore it.
It changes the question to "wait, do they even use vibranium tech?" to "okay, so they definitely don't use vibranium tech, so now did they beat the shit out of people who were?" I spent the whole movie thinking that they didn't, until suddenly they show up and easily defeat W'Kabi's men, which made me go "wait, did I get that wrong?"

edited 26th Apr '18 12:50:23 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#85693: Apr 26th 2018 at 12:53:25 PM

They don't intentionally use vibranium tech but the wood they use in their weapons and such have trace bits of vibranium

It was a thing that the vibranium got into local plant life.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#85694: Apr 26th 2018 at 12:54:12 PM

I suppose what I find confusing about it is that she didn't, say, defend T'Challa so he could reach Killmonger and complete the duel, she just straight starts trying to kill him. She's so honorbound for the rest of the movie that I thought she would have tried to preserve the integrity of the duel, not jump straight to "you cheated, so I'm going to kill you".

I mean, at that point, I think Killmonger's basically broken the terms of the challenge and has effectively launched a full-blown coup.

Oh God! Natural light!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#85695: Apr 26th 2018 at 12:58:31 PM

I want Power Pack. I've wanted Power Pack for years. Don't make it Darker and Edgier to match the rest of the Netflix-verse, make it Lighter and Softer, to contrast it. I want the Powers family to hang out with Jessica's boyfriend and his kid and for Jessica Jones to have to team up with these kids who have superpowers while also babysitting them. The Power Pack are at their best when they're teaming up with a much darker and edgier hero who has to restrain their edgier traits and become a Badbutt for the kids' sake.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#85696: Apr 26th 2018 at 1:01:46 PM

Those spears are miniaturized cannons & are the Wakandan version of small hand-guns.

There's a reason why Okoye considers guns primitive.

[down] Killmonger had already sicked the army on T'Challa so the duel was null & void anyway.

edited 26th Apr '18 1:05:35 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#85697: Apr 26th 2018 at 1:01:54 PM

I mean, at that point, I think Killmonger's basically broken the terms of the challenge and has effectively launched a full-blown coup.
Right, but what I was saying is that since she had been full Honor Before Reason up until that point, I expected her to continue to be so (and try to protect the integrity of the duel by preventing outside interference), instead of going "fuck it, I'm just gonna kill him".

Those spears are miniaturized cannons & are the Wakandan version of small hand-guns.
I'm not even sure what this means. Killmonger mentions that the spear-things he's shipping out to his agents are also energy cannons that can blow up a tank, but it's unclear if those are the same weapons that everyone is actually using in the movie, given that no one but Uylsses and Shuri actually use any sort of Wakandan energy weapon.

Unless it's something weird like "it's an energy cannon that you have to stab people with", which is just... dumb.

Killmonger had already sicked the army on T'Challa so the duel was null & void anyway.
Yes, that's why it would be honor before reason. Considering the challenge forfeit once one side blatantly cheats would be reasonable. Trying to maintain the integrity of the duel even after one side blatantly cheats would be Honor Before Reason.

edited 26th Apr '18 1:08:42 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#85698: Apr 26th 2018 at 1:06:31 PM

At that point it is more lawful to defend her king by attacking his usurper than it is to futilely try to set up a duel Killmonger has explicitly said he’s not going to do. Plus, T’challa’s pretty far away and there’s a whole army between them. If ordering an army attack on your opponent doesn’t break the laws of dueling, and so justify her retaliation, then nothing does.

edited 26th Apr '18 1:08:11 PM by Tuckerscreator

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#85699: Apr 26th 2018 at 1:10:17 PM

If ordering an army attack on your opponent doesn’t break the laws of dueling, and so justify her retaliation, then nothing does.
Yes, exactly. "Nothing justifies violating the sanctity of a challenge duel" is Honor Before Reason. That's what I've been talking about this whole time.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#85700: Apr 26th 2018 at 1:14:33 PM

Okoye is not strictly Honor Before Reason then. She is Rules Before Reason. Abide by the laws of Wakanda, live. Break and dishonor them, die.

edited 26th Apr '18 1:14:59 PM by Tuckerscreator


Total posts: 186,763
Top