Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules
still apply.
- This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
- While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread
. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
- Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.
If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.
Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
Shame - I like Jameson. I wonder why they haven't used him since the Raimi films. Maybe they're worried that everyone would just be comparing him to J. K. Simmons.
Oh God! Natural light!I really like the in-universe sensationalist side of superheroes, so I miss Jameson too. Stuff like big plastered headlines or news reports about strange monsters attacking cities, people on the street reacting to (and even interacting with, even if it's mostly as victims) these larger than life adventures.
There's a human side that imo Marvel is only just now starting to introduce into the films, with Spider-Man being the only headliner who explicitly deals with a world of (relatively) ordinary people.
![]()
Yeah, that's something I wished they delved more into - how ordinary people see all of this. This is part of the reason why I like Marvels so much.
Hopefully, they go into this in Phase 4 - Kamala would be a great character to do something like this with...
edited 25th Apr '18 7:37:01 PM by KarkatTheDalek
Oh God! Natural light!I do wish the media in superhero adaptations was explored more. It's part of the reason I'm rather miffed by the reduction of focus on CatCo in Supergirl, for instance. It'd be really neat to see more of the news outlets' and the public's perception of superheroes.
When we're done, there won't be anything left.So, I just got back from Black Panther. I was profoundly unimpressed. It wasn't terrible, but I didn't find it especially good, either.
The main problem I had is that everyone but Nakia was an asshole, and she has to little focus that I had to go look up her name. Oh, and Ross was cool. T'Challa was a hypocritical asshole who spent half the movie doing the same thing he called the Avengers out for in Civil War and the other half second-guessing his dead father's 20-year-old decisions. Shuri talks down to everyone. Bodyguard lady was all "I SERVE THE THRONE, I CANNOT BETRAY THE KING" then a while later just decides to shank Killmonger without there being any obvious cause for her change of heart. Ulysses was bugfuck nuts, but a lot of fun to watch. Pity he dies in the first half of the movie.
Killmonger himself was intensely uncomfortable, and I don't mean that in a good way. Like do they realize the plot that they wrote? It's "Oakland Black Power gangbanger (who is also a CIA-trained murderous psychopath) becomes African warlord, makes plans to start a global race war." Holy fucking Christ. The only Scary Black Man trope they missed was making him Nation of Islam while they were at it. I'm not sure who thought this was a Good Idea but they need to stand in a corner for about a year and reevaluate their life choices.
So, Wakanda. Not gonna lie, I don't really like fictional countries like Sokovia or Wakanda. They always feel like a cop-out to me. Like "yeah, it's obviously a post-Soviet Eastern European country, but it's not a real one, so if we fuck up about culture or language or whatever, it's not us fucking up, it's because our fictional country is actually like that even though real ones aren't". Wakanda is the same, but even worse because it's also a hyperadvanced utopian technofuture civilization. Except it's African! So obviously their government is an absolute monarchy where the throne changes hands based on ritual combat. 'Cause nothing says "Africa" like traditional ancient ceremonies involving murders! Like uuuuurgh you've got you be fucking kidding me.
They were trying to thread the needle between being a generic futurist society with no visible African roots and being a traditional African culture with no advanced tech shenanigans, so they took the super lazy way and put "traditional African culture" elements side-by-side with "generic futurist tech" even though it makes no goddamn sense that way.
Also I should probably put a couple more sets of air quotes around "traditional African culture" because I'd be pretty surprised if there was an actual traditional African culture where the king was chosen in ritual combat between rival heirs. I mean, there could be? I admittedly don't know much about the succession laws of traditional African cultures. But I'd be surprised, because it's a really shitty way to determine succession. Like seriously, the entire plot of the movie would not have happened if Wakanda had any check on the power of the king, or if there wasn't an "if you stab the king, you get to be the new king" rule. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
Anyway! The plot was your standard "king dies, heir succeeds, pretender usurps throne, rightful king retakes throne" with no interesting spin on it. The action was pretty meh. I've already talked about the characters and the setting. That's about all there is to say.
For those keeping track, my rankings for MCU movies are currently (best) Guardians of the Galaxy, Civil War, Iron Man 2, Iron Man 1, (cutoff for "great movie"), Captain America, The Avengers, Age of Ultron (cutoff for "good movie"), Iron Man 3, Winter Soldier, (cutoff for "alright movie"), Black Panther, Thor 2, Thor 1, The Incredible Hulk (worst). Ant-Man is not on the list because seriously, how the hell do you even compare it to the rest?
Let the hazing begin.
edited 25th Apr '18 8:45:47 PM by NativeJovian
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.Well, I did have a discussion with my buddies about BP, and there was a debate over the plausibility of a society which uses ritual combat to decide leaders as successful as Wakanda.
I explained that one of the best arguments against its plausibility is in fact, the plot of the movie.
Leviticus 19:34Okoye wouldn't betray Killmonger because he legally became king by seemingly killing T'challa. Once it was revealed T'challa was still alive, then she could switch loyalties without breaking her oath because this means Killmonger did not win the right to the throne.
Indeed. It's a great movie about the fragility of institutional norms
and about how what may have once been a decent way for a small union of tribes to balance power, eventually becomes outdated and exploitable as the nation grows larger and more advanced. *cough cough electoral college*
Also, I quote sci-fi writer N. K. Jemisin:
Same with Asgard. Hyper-advanced space civilization. Still a monarchy.
edited 26th Apr '18 12:13:24 AM by Tuckerscreator
Yeah, and that point was at the end of a spear.
I mean, that's a big reason he won the fight. T'challa's head wasn't in the game. I'm not sure if Killmonger would have gotten as far as he did if T'challa wasn't a decent enough person to actually feel guilty over what was done to him.
One Strip! One Strip!I admit, I was worried when I came across minor spoilers revealing that Killmonger was a revolutionary fighting for an African-American cause, hesitant that the movie might mar current activism as "violent". But when watching the film, I found that ultimately to not be the case. Killmonger is a villain, but he is given the most sympathy the film can give him, from the expounding on his past, to the focus on him as a child, and then to T'challa even offering him a chance for forgiveness. And ultimately the characters come to admit his cause is right, even though his methods are not and will just cause more imperialism. Nakia also expressing the same sentiments earlier and T'challa rebuking his ancestors for having turned their backs is them deciding to bring about the aid Killmonger's society deserved. Chadwick Boseman himself even remarked that he identified more with Killmonger too
.
I don't know if this was the intention of the above statement (and I certainly wouldn't call technology of kinetic reflection, super-rhinos, sonic weapons, sonic trains, and lifelike holograms made out of floating beads "generic"), but on a cursory read this sounds eerily close to prior claims by other reviewers expecting Wakanda to look more "Western". Equating a Western society look with being advanced, and viewing the African trappings as "primitive". When much of the film's aesthetics is about showing that tribal imagery can be viewed as modern and beautiful. Like Nakia's father in a lip plate and sweet suit, or Dora spears making guns look like cheap toys.
edited 26th Apr '18 12:10:18 AM by Tuckerscreator
Black Panther isn't exactly my favourite movie in the MCU either, but that is because the themes are stronger than the actual plot and I am kind of lacking the cultural context to actually connect to them. It is still a great movie, in terms of acting, costumes, soundtrack, pretty much on every level except the action scene (which are mostly okay, but Marvel can do better) and the CGI (I think the movie could have used a little bit more time...I wonder if the CGI team was a little bit too busy with Infinity war to gave this the attention it deserved).
It's still in the top half of the MCU movies...I think. There are so many good ones, it becomes hard to keep track.
I got a real Atlantis vibe from Wakanda, and as I was watching it I thought "okay, this basically makes any Namor film redundant because this is the 'isolationist nation' done extremely right"
For Killmonger, I actually found him fairly unsympathetic. He felt more like a warlord who used racism against black people as an excuse to do whatever he felt like than anything else. While his dad being an insurrectionist in the US is at least plausible, how is KM going to take over the entire world? Like, one of the cities he mentioned attacking is Hong Kong - which, aside from China never being imperialist against Africans so it's questionable why it's on his hit list - does simply not have enough of an African population that even if they all went along with the programmenote to take over.
As for Black Panther getting angry at his dad, I want to point out that while killing Killmonger's dad was probably the right decision, leaving Killmonger's child in America - abandoning the nephew you've just orphaned- was simply a moral failure, a decision solely taken to avoid making the royal family look bad. I think he has every right to second guess that.
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
So, Wakanda. Not gonna lie, I don't really like fictional countries like Sokovia or Wakanda. They always feel like a cop-out to me. Like "yeah, it's obviously a post-Soviet Eastern European country, but it's not a real one, so if we fuck up about culture or language or whatever, it's not us fucking up, it's because our fictional country is actually like that even though real ones aren't". Wakanda is the same, but even worse because it's also a hyperadvanced utopian technofuture civilization. Except it's African! So obviously their government is an absolute monarchy where the throne changes hands based on ritual combat. 'Cause nothing says "Africa" like traditional ancient ceremonies involving murders! Like uuuuurgh you've got you be fucking kidding me.
Roger Ebert disagrees because he hated the fact they had an actual plot to kill the President of Malaysia in Zoolander because it was grossly disrespectful to the nation. Similarly, I had a problem with Ghost Recon: Wildlands turning Bolivia into The Cartel controlled place. If you're going to use a nation you plan to destroy or utterly change to be controlled by robots or Nazi terrorist organizations, don't use a real nations.
I mean, would you really think it's a good idea to have Azerbajiin controlled by Hydra?
edited 26th Apr '18 2:55:54 AM by CharlesPhipps
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.I strongly disagree with Jovian’s criticism of the characters. Moreso than any other MCU film, each ensemble member has clear motivations and something of an arc. And they aren’t assholes.
Shuri- the little sister tech genius. She doesn’t have much respect for tradition, and while she is somewhat proved right, she also comes around somewhat (as seen when she joins her mother in praying to the ancestors over T’Challa’s body). She’s not talking down to everyone; she just makes fun of her big brother. She jokes with Okoye about T’Challa, but never says anything rude to Okoye. She’s respectful to her mother too. I found the family and sibling dynamic very real and enjoyable.
Okoye- the general who is firmly on the side of tradition learns that tradition is flawed. She’s very much a rule follower throughout the film. She doesn’t want Ross brought back; she obeys tradition during and after the Killmonger fight because even though she knows he’s awful, she’s loyal to the throne. When T’Challa comes back, she uses that as an excuse to turn on Killmonger immediately.
M’Baku- he’s the most extreme traditionalist and isolationist. He accepts defeat with honor, and returns T’Challa’s mercy by saving him. At the end, he overcomes his isolationist tendencies by coming to T’Challa’s/Wakanda’s aid.
W’Kabi- a traditionalist, but one willing to intervene in other countries. His betrayal of T’Challa is heavily foreshadowed by his desire for vengeance against Klaw. That motivates him above all else; when Killmonger drops that body at W’Kabi’s feet, his turn was almost guaranteed. W’Kabi is an echo of Killmonger. His desire for vengeance leads to Wakanda’s potential destruction- at the very least, he gets a lot of people hurt in the border tribe versus Dora Milaje battle.
Nakia- she gets plenty of focus; her point of view wins, in the end. She sees how Wakanda has been selfish and criticizes it; she plants the idea of opening up Wakanda. She gets an active role in every scene she’s in; it’s significant that Ross took a bullet for her, because she’s the only one who would argue that they should heal him (T’Challa makes the decision after a long look from Nakia; she backs the decision while arguing with Okoye). She advises T’Challa after the shock of finding out what T’Chaka did. She’s the one who drives the plot during T’Challa’s death/coma; she gets Ramonda and Shuri to safety, gets Ross, steals an herb, and takes everyone to Jabari land. She persuades M’Baku to help. She helps heal T’Challa, and her vision for Wakanda wins in the end.
edited 26th Apr '18 5:48:03 AM by wisewillow

The presence of the media and the public perception in general is something that has been pretty major in superhero comics but generally has gone absent in the MCU, and superhero adaptations in general arguably given that even Spider-Man adaptations outside the Raimi films tend to cut that aspect out.
Even The Flash, which a character who is ostensibly a reporter as part of the main case, cut out the "how the public perceives the Flash" aspect after the first season.