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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#85601: Apr 25th 2018 at 3:33:50 PM

where the Soul Stone could be
I'm going to go with "it was within us all along!".

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#85602: Apr 25th 2018 at 3:36:34 PM

Yeah, the idea that jumping straight to execution without a trial is justified because a suspect is armed and potentialy dangerous is both legally incorrect and on the whole extremely unsettling.

edited 25th Apr '18 3:37:54 PM by KnownUnknown

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#85603: Apr 25th 2018 at 3:37:45 PM

> Killing someone without trial is kind of illegal or some shit, isn't it? I feel like there's an international treaty of some kind about that.

Under normal circumstances killing someone without trial would be unthinkably illgeal,and yeah there are treaties about that kind of that to stop governments killing people in countries not their own

Bucky was a former assassin for Hydra,and the fact that he killed a lot of people while under their control probably made them think twice about putting him any sort of trial,since they probably felt it would be pointless because there's no way you can prove brainwashing,they took the easy option of trying to kill him without any form of the trial

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#85604: Apr 25th 2018 at 3:39:34 PM

I feel like you can totally prove Bucky's type of brainwashing.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#85605: Apr 25th 2018 at 3:39:38 PM

[up][up] Protection under the law isn't typically rescinded just because doing so would be easier and more convenient given the circumstances, and it's certainly difficult to sell as just for that reason. That's one of the reasons things like secret prisoners without trial and death squads are (formally) looked down upon. Granted, everybody does it anyway, but...

edited 25th Apr '18 3:40:52 PM by KnownUnknown

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#85606: Apr 25th 2018 at 3:43:43 PM

Cap shouldn't work under such scum.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#85607: Apr 25th 2018 at 3:45:00 PM

> I feel like you can totally prove Bucky's type of brainwashing.

Sure,but you'd have show the court that Bucky was not in control of his actions and thus was not doing it willing,and then someone has the brought idea to use the code word they used to control him and from there it all goes down from there.

In anycase,they're thinking of the bodycount and the victims like Tony's parents,they have actual evidence of that,they can prove he killed them

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#85608: Apr 25th 2018 at 3:56:50 PM

In most countries, you aren’t supposed to shoot people to kill without trial. Unfortunately, it does happen. Two notable examples would be drone strikes ordered by the US government, and police shootings of unarmed black men and women in United States. In the first instance, apparently it “doesn’t count” because terrorism; in the second case, it isn’t a kill order so much as crappy cops knowing they’ll get away with it/systemic racism.

In Bucky’s case, they didn’t even check the hazy camera footage for trickery before ordering him executed on sight. Apparently tranquilizers aren’t a thing...?

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#85609: Apr 25th 2018 at 3:57:46 PM

Or tasers.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#85610: Apr 25th 2018 at 3:58:21 PM

You'd need some heavy-duty tranquilizers to take down Bucky.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#85611: Apr 25th 2018 at 3:59:02 PM

Tranquilizers can kill people too,especially under stress

In any case,Bucky was treated like a terrorist,hence no trial and shoot on sight,because of his past with Hydra

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#85612: Apr 25th 2018 at 4:08:54 PM

Tony doesn't want to be an Arms Dealer anymore or make murder weapons.

Mostly because anything the US government makes ends up in the hands of Hydra.

:)

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#85613: Apr 25th 2018 at 4:25:06 PM

Related to what willow said: we livie in a world where people are routinely shot by the authorities - whether by individual cops, or military drone strikes - for merely existing (and being non-white).

A movie showing governments being willing to use lethal force as the first or only option against a deadly assassin who was the prime suspect in a terrorist attack doesn't really register, in comparison.

I don't think it's right, but it's orders of magnitude less objectionable than what happens on a regular basis in a universe (ours) facing far fewer threats than the MCU does.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#85614: Apr 25th 2018 at 4:44:51 PM

If we want to make this about "well, it's nothing compared to real life," then there's the problem that people are often more easily desensitized to major breaches of justice by being taught to accept minor ones. It's easier to accept unnecessary lethal force against "bad guys" in real life when your heroes exercise unnecessary lethal force against bad guys in all the media that you absorb. We do rather live in a time that struggles with the fact that a surprisingly large percentage of people think it's fine to strap on a gun and shoot somebody if they perceive them as threatening and think they need to die, even people who don't actually go out and do so themselves.

But we don't even need to go down that fascinating but lengthy and distracting ethical conversation. To go down another tracl: the MCU government making the shaky moral decision to send kill squads against Bucky isn't less of a negative thing because governments in the real world do worse, it's even more obviously a negative thing when put in the lens of real life, because of that fact. The real life background puts it in context, naturally relating it to cases in real life where such things were also done on shaky ground and allowing the filmmakers to shorthand it as problematic without outright saying so, because the general audience is used to questioning such in their own lives.

edited 25th Apr '18 5:07:12 PM by KnownUnknown

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#85615: Apr 25th 2018 at 5:01:38 PM

[up][awesome]

I'd also add that there is a lot of solid evidence known to the cast that Bucky was brainwashed. And while I don't know if anyone ever got off on this basis, it actually is a thing in common law that you aren't responsible for crimes where you didn't have mens rea (the paradigmatic example is sleep-walking, but brainwashing would probably count too, especially because at various points in the 1800's and 1900's, there was a panic about people being made to commit crimes under hypnotism).

And besides that, there's been plenty of examples of people who were captives of criminals/terrorists and have praised their captors under duress or in some cases have committed crimes themselves (thinking of Patti Hearst and Beau Bergdahl), and I think they've generally been captured/rescued and put on trial.

edited 25th Apr '18 5:03:28 PM by Hodor2

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#85616: Apr 25th 2018 at 5:18:45 PM

"Are you seriously arguing that it's okay to kill a someone without so much as a trial because they really 99% almost definitely probably did it, and anyway bringing them in alive would be a super pain in the ass? "

Well.....yeah, kinda, there is not prove to anyone but the public that Bucky is still bucky and not the winter soldier, still carrying order for Hydra or any other agent outhere, even Steven dosent have anything else but some gut feeling, not to mention that as far everyone is concern, he just bomb a meeting between word leaders and that killed one of them.

As far Everyone is invold, The Winter soldier is pretty much a high skilled terrorist.

Also and sorry to said this but "pain in the ass" you make it sound like all they have to do is struggle a little and that it. when it true he could KILLED several of them before going down, Bucky is not your ordinary target at all.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
TheAirman Brightness from The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Brightness
#85617: Apr 25th 2018 at 6:19:42 PM

Hey remember that time Natasha leaked all of Hydra/Shield’s shit? I’m sure there would’ve been something in there about how Sgt. James Buchanan Barnes is a brainwashed slave, not an assassin or terrorist with free will.

The world tried to murder him because that was the convienient option.

If J. Jonah Jameson published an article the next day saying “German Special Forces Attack Disabled WWII POW” he would’ve been telling the truth exactly as it is.

edited 25th Apr '18 6:20:10 PM by TheAirman

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#85618: Apr 25th 2018 at 6:22:36 PM

Would he have added "Spider-Man to Blame?"

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#85619: Apr 25th 2018 at 6:26:17 PM

Would he have added "Spider-Man to Blame?"

This is Jameson. Of course he would have.

One Strip! One Strip!
TheAirman Brightness from The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Brightness
#85620: Apr 25th 2018 at 6:27:25 PM

Depends on if he publishes before or after the airport battle. I wouldn’t be surprised if had a spontaneous orgasm upon hearing the Spider-Menace was involved in that.

edited 25th Apr '18 6:28:15 PM by TheAirman

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#85621: Apr 25th 2018 at 6:28:37 PM

Admittedly, Zemo does note that most of the HYDRA stuff was so well encrypted that only an expert with a lot of time on their time on their hands would've been able to read it.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#85622: Apr 25th 2018 at 6:28:55 PM

The marvel universe needs another prominant newspaper guy because having Jameson as principled newspaper guy and also irrational hates spider guy guy makes my head spin

edited 25th Apr '18 8:11:06 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TheAirman Brightness from The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Brightness
#85623: Apr 25th 2018 at 6:31:25 PM

Didn’t comics Jameson actually have a pretty legit reason for distrusting Spider-Man at one point?

I mean, look at him in Homecoming, dude straight assaults an innocent man for attempting to enter his own car.

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#85625: Apr 25th 2018 at 6:43:44 PM

I kinda like the whole complex relationship of the Daily Bugle with truth in journalism. On one hand, Jameson has a irrational hatred for spiderman and pushes that as often as possible, but outside of that he's generally portrayed as a rather reliable and honest journalist. Daredevil stories often feature this best with Phil Ulrich reporter extraordinaire and Jonah Jameson running stories on influential monsters like the Kingpin despite great personal danger in doing so.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

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