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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
Both Cap and Tony come into the Civil War proper emotionally compromised
Like the disagreement about Wanda is something that could have been sorted if they weren't both running so hot
And also if someone had told Wanda. Hell of a goof Tony and/or Vision
Forever liveblogging the AvengersPretty much.
Tony's issue is that he often acts without considering other's thoughts on the matter, even if his heart's in the right place. But we should expect this from Tony Stark, the world's greatest Super Villain.
...Got nothing to say about Cap. Everyone has already said everything they could about him and I'm having too much fun shitting on Tony.
The reason Tony's going into the accords so fast is that he, personally, needs to satisfy his concience by signing them. But he's pressuring everyone else to go along with it when Ultron was basically entirely his fault.
The Avengers do need some guidelines, but that's something that needs to be hashed out very carefully, not between one asshole representing the UN and one guy who's emotionally comprimised representing the Avengers.
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"You know, reading this, and thinking back on the How It Should Have Ended version of Captain America: Civil War, I now find myself agreeing with the idea of the The Tony Accords.
Also, lock Wanda up.
Because I feel like being a jerk.
One thing I think is an interesting factor vis-a-vis the accords, and the general national borders in regard to superheroes, is something else we don't have in the real world; extraterrestrials.
Humans are tribalistic animals, and nowhere does that intertwine so prominently with policy but on the national scale; each nation is its own sovereign state whose dealings with each other are borne of diplomacy moreso than human solidarity. But the injection of aliens into the setting actually really shakes things up, because nothing brings disparate groups together into a single tribe like an even MORE foreign group out there flexing its muscles.
Civil War kinda explored that with the mere fact that so many nations, including Wakanda, were able to come together to ratify the Accords and make the Avengers into something more globally-acceptable, and I'd be interested in seeing how the setting gets changed by a second, more widespread alien invasion. Do national borders begin to dissolve in favor of embracing "Earthling" as a globalist identity? Does humanity start to take a more aggressive or even imperialistic stance toward any other extraterrestrial groups they happen to meet, not wanting to take any chances with these new "others"? How about in regard to the Asgardian refugees? Will they be welcomed into the world thanks to their humanlike appearances and Thor being their envoy, or regarded with suspicion thanks to their imperialistic past coming to light?
edited 25th Apr '18 11:43:51 AM by Anomalocaris20
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!Steve has pretty much always believed this. It goes all the way back to the first real "superhero" thing he did — he disobeyed his commanding officer's orders and went on an unauthorized mission behind enemy lines to rescue a POW group. Hell, it goes back earlier than that — he kept applying for military service because he believed that serving was the right thing to do, even though he had to forge his application documents to do so. Steve is basically Screw the Rules, I'm Doing What's Right! incarnate.
Steve is never going to act in a way he feels he shouldn't, and he's never going to refuse to act when he feels he should. Rejecting the Accords is just an acknowledgement of this.
edited 25th Apr '18 12:03:48 PM by NativeJovian
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.Or rather, he won’t unless it involves admitting a murder his friend Bucky was involved in...
What did you think of T’challa in the film? He’s been a little undermentioned, and this film is basically the prequel to his own movie.
edited 25th Apr '18 12:19:06 PM by Tuckerscreator
Yeah, for Cap the accords are basically about putting the responsibility on the shoulders of someone else, trusting that he or she will deal with it the right way, instead of taking responsibility for your own actions.
Here is the thing with Cap: Even when he goes against the rules, he is also always ready to take the consequences. Like turning himself in to his superior after rescuing the prisoners. But only as long as he feels that the authority is reasonable. There is nothing reasonable about the raft.
And yet he kill them, that it, Tony have been affected by that by and as minimum if Cap really hard about doing the right thing, he SHOULD have told him.
Is the peak of Cap hipocresy that moment:he will do whatever he feels right except when he won.
Also the biggest problem the whole discussion cause is one:accountability.
I mean ross was right: if he lost a nuke, they would kick him out of the military and lock him up, Tony taked a alien element that was in the hands of hydra and experimented on it, this means is HIS fault that sokovia dosent exist anymore and any death is on his hands as result.
And yet.....nothing, he got away with it, the team did nothing and the event isnt mentioned again, the same can be said about Wanda but let not kick that can of worm again.....
edited 25th Apr '18 12:40:01 PM by unknowing
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"Neither Thor nor Bruce are "nukes". They are human beings. Well, Bruce is, Thor is technically an alien being, but still a thinking person. And, btw, not under the jurisdiction of earth. They can force him to obey their laws while he is on earth, but they can't force him to check in with them and stay on earth if he doesn't want to.
Honestly, Civil War should have just been Zemo being locked in a room with a tied up Tony and being allowed to kick him in the nuts until the end of time.
Less death that way. In fact, if Tony had turned himself in (maybe with Wanda, maybe without) then maybe Zemo might not have killed so many people to get back at him.
Still less of a villain than Tony Stark.
edited 25th Apr '18 12:46:40 PM by HandsomeRob
One Strip! One Strip!![]()
And yet one of them have the power to blow up a city....hell we see what Tony can do with ultron, what else can Bruce or other can do?
a regular person dosent have the destructive power of avengers and people should just sort of expect them to police themselves?
No, no thanks.
shhhhhhhhhh, we dont talk about that movie.
edited 25th Apr '18 12:47:53 PM by unknowing
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"That is a good point - regardless of the Avengers own moral standing, that's the fate of the world being kept in the hands of about ten people.
Like, why don't they get an equivalent of X-COM in Iron Man suits? That seems like it would vastly increase the Earth's defence capabilities. They have Stark and Rhodey, why not more people? We've already seen even one armoured guy is an even match for many aliens, so why not 50 or 100? I mean, Tony was planning on putting that sort of power in the hands of an AI - why not actual humans?
edited 25th Apr '18 12:50:49 PM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"![]()
Well, let's put it this way: If I want to apprehend a dangerous assassin, I don't send the village deputy to do the job, I send special forces. In the context of apprehending Bucky that would mean to send Vision and Rhodey with orders to catch him alive if they really felt they couldn't trust Steve with this. NOT giving out a kill order to people who are frankly no match for The Winter Soldier. They were lucky that Bucky was himself when the attack happened.
Because he doesn't want those weapons in the hands of terrorists. Hence the need to police who gets those special suits. We do the same when we try to police which countries are allowed to have nuclear weapons.
edited 25th Apr '18 12:52:41 PM by Swanpride
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Giving weaponry to your own government doesn't automatically mean they'll be in the hands of terrorists. This isn't the cold war anymore.
There's a giant alien threat looming over the world, 50-100 Iron Men could really turn the tide.
Heck, if I was the US I'd just go "emininent domain bitch, hand over the blueprints". Actually, screw the accords - just get Tony to hand over the Iron Man suit plans and build your own anti-alien task force. Screw controlling the Avengers. You don't need them.
It's completely irresponsible for governments to entrust the fate of the world to ten people with serious opposition to safeguards and who will at the drop of a hat do things like drag a teenage meta into a fight or hire a criminal on the run.
Heck, as you point out Captain America has serious personal issues to obeying any command he doesn't like - which is exactly the opposite of what a soldier needs to be.
edited 25th Apr '18 12:59:48 PM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"![]()
I mean, they didnt have any problem with taking a ex agent of Hydra(Wanda) in their hands I think they can police the applicants to more iron suits.
Is not really that hard.
But them you will have hundred of tony starks....
No, just no.
edited 25th Apr '18 12:59:36 PM by unknowing
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Also, Cap is not anti responsibility or anything like that, he just rightly thinks that the people who actually are on the ground defending the earth have a better idea what to do in an emergency than a bunch of politicians. If he had felt that either his or Wanda's actions in Lagos were some sort of punishable crime, he would have turned in himself or convinced Wanda to do it.
And no, randomly interning people is not a good thing. And that Cap wouldn't see it that way is clear - I doubt that he agreed with the internment camps the US had during WWII.