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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
For example, once Captain America turned into a werewolf.
Its widely agreed that its a shame that never happened in the movies.
Forever liveblogging the AvengersI felt like Civil War did a great job of making everyone's position believable and understandable for that particular character.
On the pro-Accords side, Tony feels guilty over the consequences of their exploits and either thinks that civilian oversight at one remove from the action itself will do a better job of making those calls (if you're feeling generous) or is unable to handle the moral weight of the fact that sometimes saving billions means sacrificing thousands so wants to offload those choices to someone else (if you're not feeling generous). Rhodey is active-duty military and has always operated with oversight, for him it's normal and right. Vision is making a deliberate effort to fit into human society and willingly submits himself to human authority as a result. Natasha simply wants to keep the team intact as much as possible, so when the majority of the team seems to be willing to sign, she goes along with it.
On the anti-Accords side, Steve will always act on his conscience, and so refuses to put himself under the authority of a body that he doesn't trust to act morally (which is the same beef he had with Fury and SHIELD). Sam seems to be mostly sticking with Cap, but also seems to be confident in his own moral compass and considers oversight unnecessary red tape that just makes their job harder. Wanda resents being considered a threat when she knows she's not, and refuses to be put in a cage to make others more comfortable. Clint is hardest to read since he gets the least focus in the film, but he seems to mostly look at it in terms of a job that needs doing and screw the bureaucrats (and Tony) for trying to stop them.
That said, while everyone has their own understandable logic behind their choice, I think the anti-Accord people are the ones who are right. Tony's decision is mostly emotional — he feels guilty for not being able to save everyone, so by offloading his decision-making to the UN, he'll be able to say "it wasn't my call", which is easier than making hard decisions and living with them. It's understandable, but I really dislike the "some people died while you were saving other people, so their death was your fault, you murderer" logic. (Granted, Sokova could more legitimately be laid at Tony's feet because he created Ultron, but that's actually his goddamn fault and he knew that the rest of the team would have stopped him if they knew he was doing it, so fucking own up to that, Stark.)
Oh top of that, we've seen large authoritative organizations like SHIELD and the US government at large (remember when the vice president plotted to have the president murdered by fake terrorists?) go bad, and the UN is exponentially worse. Not casting any moral judgements against the UN, but not only are they far less hardened against subversion, they were also designed to act slowly and logjam easily (because none of its members want it to be able to order them around). This is the opposite of what's needed for a group like the Avengers, who are a rapid-reaction force to potentially world-ending threats.
And of course, Tony eventually proves himself a hypocrite by going after Steve and Bucky without permission when it suits him to. Because on some level even he knows that he can't trust the UN to make the right decision? Or because he's happy to let them make the hard decisions when he's not sure what to do, but not to overrule him when he does know what he thinks is best? Either way, it pretty effectively undermines his own position.
edited 25th Apr '18 8:27:32 AM by NativeJovian
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.I think there are two discussions to be had there...one is "do we need some kind of oversight". And there the answer is clearly yes. But what the discussions actually boils down to is "should be sign the accords as they are and look for amendments later". And there the answer is clearly no.
A rulebook for the Avengers and some sort of due process if they go out of line isn't a bad idea. But that's not what the Accords were about.
I recall that aside from the emotional component Tony also wanted to get in on the ground floor so he could change the accord to be less bad from within
Tony's POV being that you can't just unilaterally tell the government to fuck off you have to become part of the system and then tell them to fuck off like he did to Ross
And Cap almost came around in this argument until he learned the Wanda concessions Tony was making
In fairness Steve's eventual compromise between working for the government and not working would not have worked for Tony
Becoming a war criminal, being secretly supported by a reclusive country while you carry on a three man war against threats to world peace works a lot better when you don't have the responsibilities of a company on your shoulders
Like, we can all agree that Cap's answer wasn't for everyone and wasn't on the table until it was too late anyway and also he didn't really have any solutions of his own aside from "flip the government the bird and hope they crawl back with better terms"
A play he stole from Tony, I believe
Forever liveblogging the Avengers...Well, I had a reply, but that's the what Wanda did discussion all over again.
Ok. Lock Tony up, throw away the Key and make someone else Iron Man. Totally agree with this.
One Strip! One Strip!A charming young up and comer named Victor who weirdly seems already comfortable with powered armor
Forever liveblogging the AvengersI don't really think that oversight of the Avengers is necessary or even possible, because in the end, the only ones capable of policing the Avengers is... the Avengers. Without any sort of enforcement mechanism, you're just operating on the honor system. Some sort of advisory body would make sense (that's basically the job SHIELD had), but ultimately, the Avengers are going to do what they think is best and nothing can stop that. Declaring that you're going to tell them what to do or else doesn't work when you don't actually have an "or else" to offer.
Civil War is about trying to control the Avengers with all stick and no carrot, but the only stick they have is other Avengers who agree to be the stick. Given that out of the pro-Accord Avengers, the only one who actually stuck with it was Vision (Tony went rogue to fight Steve and Bucky, Rhodey got taken out of the fight, and Natasha helped Cap and Bucky escape rather than let them be caught), that's obviously not viable. And that's without Thor or Hulk (both of which would be 100% anti-Accords, Hulk because he doesn't trust authority figures and Thor because he doesn't acknowledge the UN as having any authority over him) in the mix.
So having some sort of contingency plan for what to do if the Avengers go rogue is reasonable, but forcing them to promise not to go rogue is not a real solution.
edited 25th Apr '18 8:55:52 AM by NativeJovian
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.Hell, wasn’t Cap about to sign anyways once assured the Accords would have a fair review and amendment process? Until Tony opened his mouth about secretly putting Wanda under house arrest, that is. Then Zemo did the thing and everything went to shit.
Ten seconds Tony. Close your mouth for ten goddamn seconds and you could have avoided all this shit.
Edit:
’d
TL;DR: it’s all Tony’s fault.
Edit-edit:
Right, and that Bucky would be given his constitutional rights as a US citizen. Don’t want to forget that part.
edited 25th Apr '18 9:08:57 AM by TheAirman
PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/TheyWell, Cap mostly agreed for Bucky's sake. He wanted help for Bucky and he was nearly ready to do something he wasn't sure about - until he learned about Wanda. If Cap had signed, it wouldn't have solved the problem.
I wonder if the deleted scene in which Ross tells T'Challa that he will get Bucky was supposed to be the result of Steve's refusal to sign, or a demonstration that Tony made a promise he couldn't keep.
I also find Bucky's name amusing in light of the Ho Yay between him and Steve, as Buchanan was probably gay.
I kind of figure that Bucky's name is the result of Buchanan being a family name (like maybe his mother's maiden name) and that prompted his parents to name him after the president. I've compared him with the Hawkeye in M*A*S*H, who has the twofer name of Benjamin Franklin Pierce. Which I think is a particularly good comparison because while Benjamin Franklin was cool, Franklin Pierce was a pretty lousy president too.
My problem with Cap's argument is that he seems to not understand that one person, or small group can be just a biased or prone to political influence as a government. Only, unlike a government, there are no safeguards in place to control their actions if needed.
Case in point, pretty much everything that Cap does in this film, including beating the crap out of police who were just doing their jobs, was because he was personally invested in protecting his buddy above all else.
I mean the idea that a private group of citizens can, using no ones authority but their own, go into the capital city of another country, without informing the city or national government, or the police, or the military, and start a big fight in the middle of a populated area, is a flat out scary and dangerous notion. And saying "well we know best" makes you sound arrogant as all Hell in the process.
And, that ends in disaster as all Crossbones has to do is mention Bucky's name and Cap freezes up and as a result, the bomb goes off and a bunch of people die, oops.
And in the end, Zemo ONLY wins BECAUSE they "do it Cap's way." In fact, that's what Zemo was counting on all along, again oops.
And as for Wanda, Tony's POV makes total sense there. She's not a citizen and the government wants her head essentially. So he's trying to temporarily use the Avengers compound as a sort of legal grey zone until he can work something out with the government. Not an unreasonable idea actually.
Also I have trouble feeling too sorry for her since, well she's lucky that she isn't in prison after all of the crap that she pulled in AOU. Russo's, just because you try and ignore that little detail doesn't mean that everyone else will. Everyone that the Hulk killed/maimed in Johannesburg for example, is HER fault.

It's the comics,they can do whatever they want really
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