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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#85526: Apr 25th 2018 at 8:07:03 AM

It's the comics,they can do whatever they want really

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#85527: Apr 25th 2018 at 8:09:05 AM

For example, once Captain America turned into a werewolf.

Its widely agreed that its a shame that never happened in the movies.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#85528: Apr 25th 2018 at 8:12:55 AM

It would be cool if that actually happen in the movies.

And yeah, I can confirm that Cap dosent transform in werewolf in the movie, all you theory are shutdownevil grin

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#85529: Apr 25th 2018 at 8:21:32 AM

sad

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#85530: Apr 25th 2018 at 8:25:37 AM

I felt like Civil War did a great job of making everyone's position believable and understandable for that particular character.

On the pro-Accords side, Tony feels guilty over the consequences of their exploits and either thinks that civilian oversight at one remove from the action itself will do a better job of making those calls (if you're feeling generous) or is unable to handle the moral weight of the fact that sometimes saving billions means sacrificing thousands so wants to offload those choices to someone else (if you're not feeling generous). Rhodey is active-duty military and has always operated with oversight, for him it's normal and right. Vision is making a deliberate effort to fit into human society and willingly submits himself to human authority as a result. Natasha simply wants to keep the team intact as much as possible, so when the majority of the team seems to be willing to sign, she goes along with it.

On the anti-Accords side, Steve will always act on his conscience, and so refuses to put himself under the authority of a body that he doesn't trust to act morally (which is the same beef he had with Fury and SHIELD). Sam seems to be mostly sticking with Cap, but also seems to be confident in his own moral compass and considers oversight unnecessary red tape that just makes their job harder. Wanda resents being considered a threat when she knows she's not, and refuses to be put in a cage to make others more comfortable. Clint is hardest to read since he gets the least focus in the film, but he seems to mostly look at it in terms of a job that needs doing and screw the bureaucrats (and Tony) for trying to stop them.

That said, while everyone has their own understandable logic behind their choice, I think the anti-Accord people are the ones who are right. Tony's decision is mostly emotional — he feels guilty for not being able to save everyone, so by offloading his decision-making to the UN, he'll be able to say "it wasn't my call", which is easier than making hard decisions and living with them. It's understandable, but I really dislike the "some people died while you were saving other people, so their death was your fault, you murderer" logic. (Granted, Sokova could more legitimately be laid at Tony's feet because he created Ultron, but that's actually his goddamn fault and he knew that the rest of the team would have stopped him if they knew he was doing it, so fucking own up to that, Stark.)

Oh top of that, we've seen large authoritative organizations like SHIELD and the US government at large (remember when the vice president plotted to have the president murdered by fake terrorists?) go bad, and the UN is exponentially worse. Not casting any moral judgements against the UN, but not only are they far less hardened against subversion, they were also designed to act slowly and logjam easily (because none of its members want it to be able to order them around). This is the opposite of what's needed for a group like the Avengers, who are a rapid-reaction force to potentially world-ending threats.

And of course, Tony eventually proves himself a hypocrite by going after Steve and Bucky without permission when it suits him to. Because on some level even he knows that he can't trust the UN to make the right decision? Or because he's happy to let them make the hard decisions when he's not sure what to do, but not to overrule him when he does know what he thinks is best? Either way, it pretty effectively undermines his own position.

edited 25th Apr '18 8:27:32 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#85531: Apr 25th 2018 at 8:34:22 AM

I think there are two discussions to be had there...one is "do we need some kind of oversight". And there the answer is clearly yes. But what the discussions actually boils down to is "should be sign the accords as they are and look for amendments later". And there the answer is clearly no.

A rulebook for the Avengers and some sort of due process if they go out of line isn't a bad idea. But that's not what the Accords were about.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#85532: Apr 25th 2018 at 8:49:54 AM

I recall that aside from the emotional component Tony also wanted to get in on the ground floor so he could change the accord to be less bad from within

Tony's POV being that you can't just unilaterally tell the government to fuck off you have to become part of the system and then tell them to fuck off like he did to Ross

And Cap almost came around in this argument until he learned the Wanda concessions Tony was making

In fairness Steve's eventual compromise between working for the government and not working would not have worked for Tony

Becoming a war criminal, being secretly supported by a reclusive country while you carry on a three man war against threats to world peace works a lot better when you don't have the responsibilities of a company on your shoulders

Like, we can all agree that Cap's answer wasn't for everyone and wasn't on the table until it was too late anyway and also he didn't really have any solutions of his own aside from "flip the government the bird and hope they crawl back with better terms"

A play he stole from Tony, I believe

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#85533: Apr 25th 2018 at 8:50:43 AM

Wanda resents being considered a threat when she knows she's not, and refuses to be put in a cage to make others more comfortable.

...Well, I had a reply, but that's the what Wanda did discussion all over again.

(Granted, Sokova could more legitimately be laid at Tony's feet because he created Ultron, but that's actually his goddamn fault and he knew that the rest of the team would have stopped him if they knew he was doing it, so fucking own up to that, Stark.)

Ok. Lock Tony up, throw away the Key and make someone else Iron Man. Totally agree with this.

One Strip! One Strip!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#85534: Apr 25th 2018 at 8:52:04 AM

A charming young up and comer named Victor who weirdly seems already comfortable with powered armor

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#85535: Apr 25th 2018 at 8:54:51 AM

I don't really think that oversight of the Avengers is necessary or even possible, because in the end, the only ones capable of policing the Avengers is... the Avengers. Without any sort of enforcement mechanism, you're just operating on the honor system. Some sort of advisory body would make sense (that's basically the job SHIELD had), but ultimately, the Avengers are going to do what they think is best and nothing can stop that. Declaring that you're going to tell them what to do or else doesn't work when you don't actually have an "or else" to offer.

Civil War is about trying to control the Avengers with all stick and no carrot, but the only stick they have is other Avengers who agree to be the stick. Given that out of the pro-Accord Avengers, the only one who actually stuck with it was Vision (Tony went rogue to fight Steve and Bucky, Rhodey got taken out of the fight, and Natasha helped Cap and Bucky escape rather than let them be caught), that's obviously not viable. And that's without Thor or Hulk (both of which would be 100% anti-Accords, Hulk because he doesn't trust authority figures and Thor because he doesn't acknowledge the UN as having any authority over him) in the mix.

So having some sort of contingency plan for what to do if the Avengers go rogue is reasonable, but forcing them to promise not to go rogue is not a real solution.

edited 25th Apr '18 8:55:52 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#85536: Apr 25th 2018 at 8:58:58 AM

Which is why nobody would have had to go on the run if they had agreed to take a stand and say "look, those accords are not workable, we need some changes in them".

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#85537: Apr 25th 2018 at 9:00:18 AM

Collective bargaining

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TheAirman Brightness from The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Brightness
#85538: Apr 25th 2018 at 9:02:00 AM

Hell, wasn’t Cap about to sign anyways once assured the Accords would have a fair review and amendment process? Until Tony opened his mouth about secretly putting Wanda under house arrest, that is. Then Zemo did the thing and everything went to shit.

Ten seconds Tony. Close your mouth for ten goddamn seconds and you could have avoided all this shit.

Edit: [nja]’d

TL;DR: it’s all Tony’s fault.

Edit-edit: [down] Right, and that Bucky would be given his constitutional rights as a US citizen. Don’t want to forget that part.

edited 25th Apr '18 9:08:57 AM by TheAirman

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#85539: Apr 25th 2018 at 9:04:15 AM

Well, Cap mostly agreed for Bucky's sake. He wanted help for Bucky and he was nearly ready to do something he wasn't sure about - until he learned about Wanda. If Cap had signed, it wouldn't have solved the problem.

I wonder if the deleted scene in which Ross tells T'Challa that he will get Bucky was supposed to be the result of Steve's refusal to sign, or a demonstration that Tony made a promise he couldn't keep.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#85540: Apr 25th 2018 at 9:26:27 AM

Which is why nobody would have had to go on the run if they had agreed to take a stand and say "look, those accords are not workable, we need some changes in them".
Yeah, the real problem here is that the text of the Accords are presented to them fait accompli, take it or leave it, and they're given all of three days warning before the UN vote. Even if everything in them was alright with the Avengers, that's still a blatant attempt to pressure them into agreeing with an artificial sense of urgency. Tony's plan to renegotiate after signing seems wrongheaded to me (once you've signed it, you've got no leverage), but it's at least to his credit that he admits that it's not perfect and needs changes and actually has a plan to make those changes.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#85541: Apr 25th 2018 at 9:31:50 AM

Pretty much. I mean, if you want a guideline for the Avengers, shouldn't you at least talk to them in order to figure out what is workable and what isn't? Ie an UN resolution to even allow them to intervene is certainly NOT workable.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#85542: Apr 25th 2018 at 10:00:30 AM

You know, it's funny that Bucky's real name is James Buchanan Barnes, since President James Buchanan inadvertently helped start a Civil War, too.

edited 25th Apr '18 10:01:10 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#85543: Apr 25th 2018 at 10:01:36 AM

Seriously, who names their kid after one of the country’s worst Presidents?

Oh God! Natural light!
NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#85544: Apr 25th 2018 at 10:15:03 AM

You know there's probably some poor infant with some variation of "Donald" and/or "Trump" for a name. lol

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#85545: Apr 25th 2018 at 10:20:52 AM

Clearly in the MCU, President Buchanan was a hyper-deadly assassin.

DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#85546: Apr 25th 2018 at 10:21:59 AM

Poor Bucky. Even before being brainwashed by Hydra, he still had problems, like being named after a bad president. tongue

[up] I'd believe that.

edited 25th Apr '18 10:22:29 AM by DeathsApprentice

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#85547: Apr 25th 2018 at 10:22:12 AM

I also find Bucky's name amusing in light of the Ho Yay between him and Steve, as Buchanan was probably gay.

I kind of figure that Bucky's name is the result of Buchanan being a family name (like maybe his mother's maiden name) and that prompted his parents to name him after the president. I've compared him with the Hawkeye in M*A*S*H, who has the twofer name of Benjamin Franklin Pierce. Which I think is a particularly good comparison because while Benjamin Franklin was cool, Franklin Pierce was a pretty lousy president too.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#85548: Apr 25th 2018 at 10:37:25 AM

I dunno.

I fully believe you lose the right to dictate terms regarding the use of force when your creation destroys a country.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#85549: Apr 25th 2018 at 10:41:41 AM

Not "dictating the terms". Having an input.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#85550: Apr 25th 2018 at 10:54:47 AM

My problem with Cap's argument is that he seems to not understand that one person, or small group can be just a biased or prone to political influence as a government. Only, unlike a government, there are no safeguards in place to control their actions if needed.

Case in point, pretty much everything that Cap does in this film, including beating the crap out of police who were just doing their jobs, was because he was personally invested in protecting his buddy above all else.

I mean the idea that a private group of citizens can, using no ones authority but their own, go into the capital city of another country, without informing the city or national government, or the police, or the military, and start a big fight in the middle of a populated area, is a flat out scary and dangerous notion. And saying "well we know best" makes you sound arrogant as all Hell in the process.

And, that ends in disaster as all Crossbones has to do is mention Bucky's name and Cap freezes up and as a result, the bomb goes off and a bunch of people die, oops.

And in the end, Zemo ONLY wins BECAUSE they "do it Cap's way." In fact, that's what Zemo was counting on all along, again oops.

And as for Wanda, Tony's POV makes total sense there. She's not a citizen and the government wants her head essentially. So he's trying to temporarily use the Avengers compound as a sort of legal grey zone until he can work something out with the government. Not an unreasonable idea actually.

Also I have trouble feeling too sorry for her since, well she's lucky that she isn't in prison after all of the crap that she pulled in AOU. Russo's, just because you try and ignore that little detail doesn't mean that everyone else will. Everyone that the Hulk killed/maimed in Johannesburg for example, is HER fault.


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