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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
Yeah this is where I credit the Russo's, Tony is really sympathetic here as well. He learned this information at literally the WORST TIME POSSIBLE!! And when the video is playing, Cap has this "oh no, not now" expression on his face.
CW sets up that Tony is already damaged mentally and emotionally. He has a lot of guilt over the Ultron thing (and this is made worse by a mother telling him that she blames him for the death of her son), not to mention all of the other good things that he tried to do that blew up in his face. Also the woman that he loves left him because he couldn't stop being Iron Man, and he has Ross and the government breathing down his neck constantly. So he's already hanging on by barely a thread mentally to begin with. And then Cap's seeming refusal to compromise and the ensuing fallout just exacerbates this fact.
But EVEN THEN, he was still willing to forgive Bucky for nearly shooting him IN THE FACE early on in the movie, and to work with Cap to take down Zemo. BUT, then he has this bombshell dropped on him, and then he finds out that Cap knew about it and didn't tell him, and THAT seems to be what truly set him off.
Basically, in the heat of the moment, he snapped. Really I believe that if Cap had come to him earlier on and explained the situation to him, Tony might very well have been more understanding. But he didn't and Tony learned about it at the worst time possible in the worst way possible (hence why I say that Cap was ultimately wrong in how he handled it, but nevertheless its still understandably WHY he handled it that way).
And tellingly, once Tony gets what is essentially an apology/explanation letter from Steve, he decides NOT to rat Steve out to Ross.
edited 25th Apr '18 4:46:12 AM by Punisher286
Yeah, that is kind of the point of Civil War...none of the people involved is necessarily wrong (other than Ross and Zemo, naturally), and even though their actions have terrible consequences, it is understandable why they react the way they do.
Though Tony should have listened at the airport. But then, Steve could have tried to talk to him, too.
If we recall Red Dragon, "As a child my heart goes out to him but as an adult he's irredeemable."
In the case of the Winter Soldier, he may be completely broken by his brainwashing and unable to be anything but a murderer by what has been done to him. He's killed hundreds of people and might be able to kill hundreds more with the right system.
In Tony's case, he might have been willing to take him alive and work to get him help but:
1. Steve didn't trust him to look out for Bucky.
2, Steve KNEW Bucky killed his parents and kept this information from Tony, which to say is a monumental act of disrespect is an understatement.
God knows I wouldn't forgive either of them.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.![]()
I don’t like the suggestion that Bucky is permanently damaged/brainwashed; the end of Winter Soldier showed that wasn’t the case, and Civil War confirmed it.
1. Why should Steve trust Tony to look out for Bucky?
2. Steve was 99% sure, based on logical inferences. He didn’t know for sure and didn’t want to confirm or tell Tony. Which I agree is awful, but it’s understandable. “I’m pretty sure Hydra made my best friend murder your parents while he was brainwashed” is not a fun discussion.
edited 25th Apr '18 5:29:13 AM by wisewillow
The airport scene is actually a great example of this. Things had escalated to the point that neither of them was in a position to react properly. Tony wasn't in a position to listen properly because he knew that if he didn't bring Steve and co in, Ross would go after them and Ross wouldn't be nearly as nice about it. It's why Tony is practically BEGGING Steve to stand down at that point.
And Steve wasn't in a position to explain properly because he believes that if he doesn't act NOW, then Zemo will have a group of other Winter Soldier's under his command, and he believes that Tony is misguided in trusting authority.
Essentially it's a case of "too little too late, wrong time" there,
edited 25th Apr '18 5:35:48 AM by Punisher286
1. Why should Steve trust Tony to look out for Bucky?
Are they friends or not? You either trust the guy to watch your back and your loved ones or you don't.
Steve didn't.
2. Steve was 99% sure, based on logical inferences. He didn’t know for sure and didn’t want to confirm or tell Tony. Which I agree is awful, but it’s understandable. “I’m pretty sure Hydra made my best friend murder your parents while he was brainwashed” is not a fun discussion.
The choice not to tell Tony was a choice the same as choosing to tell him, though.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.And too much pressure. They were both running out of time, since there were two ticking clocks running (the time Ross gave Tony to bring the others in and the time Zemo would need to defrost the Supersoldiers).
Things is, they both were conned. I don't think that there was ever a chance that the others would end up anywhere than the Raft and Zemo never had the intention to let loose the super soldiers.
Okay, red alert time:
The Crowning Moment of Funny page for Infinity War is now showing stuff from the actual movie, so tread lightly.
Either that, or someone restore it to what it was previously and edit lock the page entirely.
2 more days, you guys.
edited 25th Apr '18 5:51:40 AM by TargetmasterJoe
They certainly did a better job of it than the comic did, where I just kind of hated everyone. In the film, even the villain has a degree of sympathy (or at least feels more, pitiful than anything else).
Also it takes some big brass balls to take what seems to be the final film in your "Captain America series," at least for the time being anyway and go "well maybe you're previously unambiguous paragon of virtue and morality, isn't necessarily 100% right this time around."
edited 25th Apr '18 6:08:39 AM by Punisher286
Steve was never 100% right. Ie in The First Avenger, Bucky is kind of right when he doubts his motivations. There is an element in Steve which does crave the power to be the one who can change the world into something better and isn't satisfied with just being one small bolt is a bigger structure. That doesn't make him less heroic, but way more human.
And in The Winter Soldier Steve spends half of the movie in some sort of funk until his world falls apart.
I will say that Tony is somewhat non-sympathetic in Civil War for me since he seems to feel entitled to compel the rest of the Avengers to atone for his mistake of making Ultron. In Ao U he's at his most pro-active and overconfident and when that backfires he immediately slams the other way and overcompensates by being really submissive - which would be understandable if not for dragging everyone else with him.
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?""Are they friends or not? "
.....Are they? I big issue with CW is before Tony and Cap didnt seen to be really close, Hell Tony and Bruce look like friend and so Falcon and Cap or Cap and Nat....but Tony and Steve? yeah no.
And my issue of who is right is that it feel artificially rigged, in part because none of them actually cared about the accords as they are: Tony is just acting on is gult feelings and Steve is more worry about Bucky.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"Yeah, Avengers, IM 3, and Age of Ultron failed to build a solid Steve and Tony friendship. So the Russos had to make up a lot of lost ground in Civil War. They... tried their best.
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If anything, Tony and Cap kinda looke like they hated each other, is clear Wheeon and Russo brother goes in diferent directions here.
Well, when you friend kill your other friend parent, that might be a good reason to tell the secret, isnt?:
You don't tell your friends everything sure. But when the big secret involves the deaths of THEIR parents, which they're STILL hung up on like 25 years later, yeah that's something that they probably need to know.
Also if we're playing the selfish game with CW, then again I'd argue that both Tony and Steve are equally selfish in their stances. And there's a bit of hypocrisy in both of their arguments as well.

Yeah, Tony really looses it, but it is obvious that this is a spur of the moment reaction. If he had learned about Bucky in a calmer environment he might not have forgiven Bucky, but he wouldn't have tried to murder him either. There is a reason why "murder in affect" is judged differently than planned murder.