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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#85451: Apr 24th 2018 at 11:03:42 PM

And again most of those people are secret agents or regular people.

So its just Ghost Rider & the kids from Runaways at the moment.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#85452: Apr 24th 2018 at 11:05:27 PM

Props to the Runaways on that for more than one!

(Assuming Gertrude is meant to be Latina—her actress is but it's entirely possible for her to be playing a Ambiguously Jewish Caucasian Girl)

Doubly so if Victor joins the group.

edited 24th Apr '18 11:06:12 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#85453: Apr 24th 2018 at 11:10:48 PM

The TV side is part of the MCU but good luck getting the movies to acknowledge them. As it stands, they're fairly separated and the movies seriously need to pick up the slack. The TV division is doing better than I expected, I'll admit, but the movies need to pick up the slack hard.

Also seriously we need better Asian representation here. Out of the entire MCU, we have, off the top of my head, Colleen Wing, Daisy Johnson, Melinda May, Nico Minoru and her family, the one Nisei member of the Howling Commandos (forgot his name), Ned, Davos, Wong, and all of that shit with the Hand (of which only Madame Gao is probably the closest to being anything decent and she's still kind of iffy). Notice how three of these are from the movies, and the Howling Commandos are mostly in the background anyways. Also I would've counted Karnak from Inhumans but fuck Inhumans.

[up][up]

Dude, one of them is Daisy Johnson. Quake. She has superpowers. Actually, two of them have superpowers. And there was a third one but he died in a heroic sacrifice.

[up]

In the show, Gert is still supposed to be Jewish, I think? Her parents are Caucasian and white as fuck. I'm talking Phish fan levels of white.

edited 24th Apr '18 11:11:17 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#85454: Apr 24th 2018 at 11:12:13 PM

[up]There's also the doctor from Age of Ultron whose name I forgot because she doesn't really do much or have much presence besides building the vibranium body.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#85455: Apr 24th 2018 at 11:13:07 PM

Oh right, Helen Cho.

And there's that one dude on Jessica Jones who's just meant to be a snobby asshole.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#85456: Apr 24th 2018 at 11:13:09 PM

[up][up][up] Alright s couple more that's good.

Ooooo Hazmat.

Also Mettle's Jewish.

edited 24th Apr '18 11:13:36 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#85457: Apr 24th 2018 at 11:15:19 PM

Once the merger goes through next year they'll also have access to characters like Jubilee, Sunfire and Psylocke (who could easily be depicted as a British-Asian woman instead of a white woman who switches bodies with a Japanese woman).

Huh...never noticed it but between them and people like Karma, Armor, Lady Deathstrike, Surge and Silver Samurai, it does seem like a good chunk of the semi-prominent Asian characters at Marvel belong to the X-Men franchise. Even the Big Hero 6 started off as an X-Men spin-off (but nobody remembers that).

If we're talking Latin characters, the most recent Nova is Mexican-American, so he could be in the movie Feige said they're discussing.

edited 24th Apr '18 11:18:08 PM by comicwriter

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#85458: Apr 24th 2018 at 11:16:29 PM

I want my goddamn Latino Nova, damn it.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#85459: Apr 24th 2018 at 11:17:00 PM

Oh hell, the X-men used to be all of the popular non-white heroes.

It's POSSIBLE this contributed to its popularity.

(Internet's white dudes: NO! IT CANNOT BE!)

Circa mid-90s, Marvel was basically just Spiderman and the X-men in terms of what sold. The Avengers were more or less relics.

edited 24th Apr '18 11:17:36 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#85460: Apr 24th 2018 at 11:18:31 PM

Avengers vs X-Men the film...

Just Makima.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#85461: Apr 24th 2018 at 11:19:30 PM

[up][up]Most definitely. Storm, Bishop and Jubilee (and debatably Psylocke) are the most visible ones, but there's also Dani Moonstar, Karma, Sunspot, and a lot more. It helps when your minority allegory has actual minorities (something the previous movies never quite grasped).

edited 24th Apr '18 11:19:49 PM by comicwriter

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#85462: Apr 24th 2018 at 11:22:29 PM

[up][up] Hey if they can fix Civil War they can fix that.

I have faith that no one in the movie business will call Cyclops adolf.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#85463: Apr 24th 2018 at 11:24:08 PM

[up] Cyclops was right!

Just Makima.
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#85464: Apr 24th 2018 at 11:29:05 PM

Well, there's Mantis, but her character's actually an alien so...

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#85465: Apr 24th 2018 at 11:41:23 PM

Man, Spider-Man 2099 would be weird. I could totally see him showing up in Infinity War or Avengers 4 through Time Stone shenanigans, though.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#85466: Apr 25th 2018 at 1:07:19 AM

I know this was posted a while ago but...how the hell seems Bucky unredeemable in The Winter Soldier? I mean, alone for the scene when he sits in the chair and says "I know him" and then gets electrocuted, glaring while he accepts the mouth piece but being resigned to his fate - it breaks my heart every single time. The question in The Winter Soldier is not if there should be a rescue attempt for Bucky, the question is if Steve would be able to break through the conditioning.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#85467: Apr 25th 2018 at 1:25:50 AM

Bucky was incredibly sympathetic in TWS if anything. It's made pretty clear that what he does as Winter Soldier isn't actually his fault, that he's suffered terribly over the years, and we even get that Cap flashback reminding you that he's fundamentally a good guy. Also he freaking saves Cap's life at the end as well.

Really the idea is clearly supposed to be that Bucky is almost as much of a victim as the people that he's killed while under HYDRA's brainwashing.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#85468: Apr 25th 2018 at 2:04:34 AM

Yeah, which is why I always hate it when people put The Winter Soldier into the villain category. He isn't a villain, he is the tool of the villain.

Another thing: Steve didn't know for sure that Bucky killed Howard, but based on what Zola said, he suspected it. He knew that Howard was killed, but he didn't want to know if Bucky did it. After all, Howard was his friend, too.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#85469: Apr 25th 2018 at 2:42:30 AM

I personally always make a point to clarify that I leave Winter Soldier off of villains lists because I do not consider him to even be a villain. He's a mind-controlled drone essentially. He's no more a villain than Hawkeye was when under mind control in The Avengers (that is to say, not at all).

As for the CW thing, I interpret it as Cap DID know deep down. But he didn't want to admit it to himself because it was too painful for him. And that that's a big part of why he apologizes to Tony at the end.

And you know what, I don't have an issue with that. I don't think that it suddenly makes Cap into a bad person overall, not even close. It just makes him feel more human and he doesn't automatically make the right choice 100% of the time, and that a good way to take him as a character imo.

edited 25th Apr '18 2:48:43 AM by Punisher286

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#85470: Apr 25th 2018 at 3:25:13 AM

[up] Yeah, this is exactly how I interpret that, too. Cap did know deep down, which is why he never looked into Howard's death, because he didn't want to know for sure. And yes, it makes him more human that for once he didn't do the right thing and talked to tony, but kept the secret telling himself that he would protect Tony by doing it, while actually protecting himself.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#85471: Apr 25th 2018 at 3:41:08 AM

Where it looks like Steve learned Tony's parents were assassinated was during Computer-Zola's Motive Rant during The Winter Soldier.
Oh yeah, there we go. Still, I don't feel like Civil War did a good enough job of selling the lengths that Tony was willing to go to in order to kill someone he knew to be brainwashed. We've never seen Tony willing to kill in cold blood, and "you killed my parents 25 years ago so I'm going to kill you even though I know you had no choice and also I have to beat up (maybe also kill? it's unclear if he'd have been willing to go that far) a friend of mine to do it".

Okay, I feel this needs to be said: when you reviewed Ant-Man, you said some characters felt like stereotypes. Were you talking about Luis? Because we're gonna have problems if you were talking about Luis.
I meant all three of the thief-sidekicks. Luis is better than the other two, but all three of them are primarily a skin tone, an accent, an a criminal record. It's... not good.

I know this was posted a while ago but...how the hell seems Bucky unredeemable in The Winter Soldier? I mean, alone for the scene when he sits in the chair and says "I know him" and then gets electrocuted, glaring while he accepts the mouth piece but being resigned to his fate - it breaks my heart every single time. The question in The Winter Soldier is not if there should be a rescue attempt for Bucky, the question is if Steve would be able to break through the conditioning.
Because the answer to that question seemed to be obviously "no" to me. As you said, he questions it briefly, but then he accepts it without struggling against it. It's not that I felt he was unsympathetic or somehow deserved it, it's that he felt like a lost cause and Cap had no reason to believe otherwise. You can't sell a "I Know You Are in There Somewhere" Fight when you seem to have established that no, he isn't in there, not anymore.

Which is why I didn't like Winter Soldier's handling of it, but though Civil War did a good job. In Civil War he fights it. Instead of accepting it (reluctantly or not) as he did in Winter Soldier, he breaks out and tries to stop Zemo from reading the activation code. In Winter Soldier, all that's left of Bucky is vague memories in a sense of confusion, and then even that gets erased, which makes it seem like trying to save him is a lost cause. In Civil War, it's clear that Bucky's isn't gone, he's just controlled by the conditioning, which is something else entirely.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#85472: Apr 25th 2018 at 3:52:36 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asj0Hk-tbks

Great analysis of the infinity stones (no spoilers for Infinity war)

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85473: Apr 25th 2018 at 3:55:30 AM

Oh yeah, there we go. Still, I don't feel like Civil War did a good enough job of selling the lengths that Tony was willing to go to in order to kill someone he knew to be brainwashed. We've never seen Tony willing to kill in cold blood, and "you killed my parents 25 years ago so I'm going to kill you even though I know you had no choice and also I have to beat up (maybe also kill? it's unclear if he'd have been willing to go that far) a friend of mine to do it".

We've seen him be pretty brutal in the first Iron Man, including throwing a ten ringer to a gang of civilians so that they could kill him.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#85474: Apr 25th 2018 at 4:07:44 AM

I think Civil War does a really good job of showing Tony under emotional strain for the entire movie. From his opening scene he is at a state of intense emotional stress, which only gets worse throughout the film. The first time he really calms down is when he and Steve are briefly on the same side in Siberia… And then when the video plays… He snaps.

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#85475: Apr 25th 2018 at 4:23:37 AM

Said it before and I’ll say it again on the Latino heroes tip -

Latino Fantastic Four.


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