Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules
still apply.
- This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
- While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread
. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
- Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.
If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.
Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
Holy shit, Civil War was really good. I'd put it right at the top, juuuust behind Guardians of the Galaxy. Just a few small details that keep it from being #1.
First of all, Civil War handled Bucky exactly how they didn't in Winter Soldier. They made it clear that the Hydra mind control was still a thing, while at the same time making it clear that there was more to him than just that. Winter Soldier left me feeling that Cap should've just put a bullet between his eyes and made things easier on everyone. Civil War made it clear that he was still dangerous if the wrong people got their hands on him, but he ultimately felt worth saving in a way that he didn't in Winter Soldier.
I legitimately did not know that Spider-Man showed up in this movie. Holy shit, someone finally remembered that Spider-Man is a dorky high school kid! Why is a Captain America movie doing Spider-Man better than any Spider-Man movie ever has? I'm not sure I really buy the idea that Tony knew about him and just sat on that info until he needed an ace in the hole, but it was a pretty crowded movie so I can forgive them for not really foreshadowing that — and it does make a lot of sense for him to bring in a new, unknown ally to throw off the Cap's team.
Same applies to Ant-Man on Cap's side, both the "bringing in an unknown" part and the "I'm not sure how they got his contact info but I think skipping over it was a good decision" part. I can't believe they managed to bring in stupid campy Ant-Man and make him fit in a proper MCU movie without making him feel like a completely different character. Would have liked to see a mention of his family and daughter (and in particular why he was willing to risk never seeing her again), but again, it was already a pretty crowded movie and it wasn't the worst thing in the world to leave out.
More generally, characters were great. Well-written, felt like themselves rather than like props to make the movie more epic, all of them got some time to shine, even if it was only a scene or two. Given just how damn many characters we're talking about here, that's pretty impressive. All of them were good, but special mention to Hawkeye (who did a lot with like, two scenes to work with), Natasha (whose ambivalent flipping back and forth felt like a consistent attitude reacting to changing circumstances, rather than just like erratic writing), and Vision (who showed some very human foibles — and failings — without losing the sense of otherworldliness that really makes the character click).
The plot was solid and had enough twists to be interesting without being so twisty as to be hard to follow. The ultimate conflict between both Zemo and the Avengers and between Team Tony and Team Steve felt genuine and unforced, though I'm not really thrilled with the whole "the heroes weren't perfect therefore they're evil and must be stopped!" thing they had going on. The hypocrisy displayed by both Tony and T'Challa (calling for regulation of the Avengers, then going rogue when it suits them) felt like something the characters themselves would do, not like the writers lost their train of thought somewhere. This is also the first MCU movie that really felt like it changes the entire course of the MCU, rather than just being "okay, show's over, wrap up and on to the next story". (This is what I was saying about Winter Solider, that the destruction of SHIELD should have felt like that, but didn't because SHIELD didn't have enough time to establish itself — especially when Tony stepped in and started bankrolling all the Avenger shenanigans without much of a hiccup anyway.)
The action was great. Like GOTG, everyone fought in their own style that felt appropriate to the character, and the fight scenes kept the plot moving instead of dragging on to the point of feeling gratuitous like they did in Ultron. The only parts that I didn't much care for were early on when Cap and Bucky were fighting the special forces team — ostensibly the government-backed good guys who had public safety in mind, but that didn't stop them from firing helicopter-mounted rotary cannons into populated city streets. The final back-and-forth between Cap, Iron Man, and Bucky, was excellent in particular. It felt brutal and ugly in a way that no other MCU fight scene really has, even the ones that went to similar levels of Combat Breakdown.
Few problems with the movie, mostly details. I don't think they properly solid Tony getting literally murderous over the death of his parents. Yeah, he cared a lot about them, but it was never really portrayed as a driving motivation so much as part of his background, so trying to straight-up kill the guy who did it — knowing that he was a brainwashed agent rather than a willing conspirator — and willing to go through Steve to do it — some 25 years after the fact felt like a stretch. I'm also not sure when Steve learned that it was Bucky who did it? That seems like an important detail, though I'm legitimately unsure if it was mentioned somewhere and I missed it or if it just never came up before. The other thing I that bothered me was Rhodey's injury. Didn't we establish in Age of Ultron that the tech exists to build entire organic bodies from scratch? It seems like they could pull some strings and get Rhodey's spine fixed up. Or use the perfected Extremis treatment. Or have Ant-Man shrink down and kick things back into place. Or ask Thor to do them a solid and take him to Asgard to get fixed up real quick. You get the idea.
I'm sure I'm missing some things, since it was a looong movie and pretty densely packed, but it's pushing midnight and I need to be up early tomorrow, so I'll leave it here for now. Going to see Black Panther in the theater tomorrow, and then after that I might take a break for a while, since I've been watching these things like one or two movies a day for the past week straight. Or maybe I'll just keep binging them so I can catch up and watch Infinity War this weekend. We'll see how I feel.
edited 24th Apr '18 9:07:32 PM by NativeJovian
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.I mean, there's still Ant-Man and the Wasp...
But let's be real, that isn't going to hold a candle to Black Panther..
Oh God! Natural light!Where it looks like Steve learned Tony's parents were assassinated was during Computer-Zola's Motive Rant during The Winter Soldier. First he reveals "history would be made to change" with an image of the Winter Soldier carrying out a sniping. Then he follows that by saying: "accidents" will happen, with images reporting Howard Stark's and Nick Fury's death, the latter of whom Steve and Nat knew was attacked by the Winter Soldier. So from there, Steve could've put together that Bucky must've killed Howard too.
Tony airing his personal baggage all over that audience of MIT students does make it seem that the deaths of his parents and his failure to find closure with them weighs heavily on him to the current day
And Tony's daddy issues go back as far as Iron Man 2
Forever liveblogging the AvengersOkay I thought of a way to use Zemo for a Thunderbolts movie.
Change his motivation to pretending to be a hero to discredit them. He pretends to be a great hero at first & then his master-plan involves something so bad no one will ever trust them again.
To do this, he gathers a like-minded group of villains like Vulture who wanna ruin the hero's relatively good name but like in the comic they've come to enjoy being heroes & that's why they turn against Zemo.
Hell you could even adapt Moonstone's epic reason you suck speech to Zemo about this saying how insane his plan is.
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."Okay, I feel this needs to be said: when you reviewed Ant-Man, you said some characters felt like stereotypes. Were you talking about Luis? Because we're gonna have problems if you were talking about Luis. Luis is one of the best non-super supporting characters in the MCU, and I will not leave insults to his name go unchallenged.
By the way, I would recommend watching the 3 movies between Civil War and Black Panther, Guardians of the Galaxy 2, Spider-Man: Homecoming, and Thor: Ragnarok. Not necessarily before Black Panther, they aren't necessary for that, but they're all great films, and thinking that Guardians 2 is better than the first one isn't a unpopular opinion.
"He can do whatever the fuck he wants cause again its Tony Stark. "
I thing that is his life motto.
and since Swan put fan ideas for scenes, I just imagine one of Cap and Tony taking and Cap revealing is more deepest secret....
He never really got that reference in the helicarrier, he lie about it.
That's not how it works. You can't dismiss any Unfortunate Implications just because he's well written. Mind, I like Luis, but even I'm thinking "Yeah, this is kind of an iffy thing in terms of us getting represented in the MCU". He's better than most examples of that stereotype, but unless they give us another Latino character in the MCU then it's going to be kind of noticeable that the most visible one is a thief. A thief who breaks some stereotypes and is fairly well written, mind, but still a thief.
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?TV-wise there's at least Robbie (I haven't seen Ao S but I got the impression he's been well-received) and Claire, but that's it really.
There's also Elena on Agents of SHIELD, and she's pretty good. Plus Joey but he was barely there to be honest, so that's a disappointment. At least he didn't die. And Molly on Runaways but...shit, I almost forgot Runaways was a thing. That show was kinda dull.
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?They are part of the MCU, but let's be honest: the movies are way higher profile and more relevant. The TV shows are practically their own universe and don't really influence anything that goes in the movies either.
So the latinx representation in the tv shows does matter and it is important (since they are pretty popular and a lot of people watch them), but latinx representation in the films (the main part of the MCU) would be even more meaningful.
edited 24th Apr '18 11:02:27 PM by Draghinazzo
To summarize what is very common in Hollywood:
It's not that Luis is problematic that he's a problem.
It's the fact Luis is the only Latin character in 18 films.
If Arana, Ms. America, or Spiderman 2099 existed then it wouldn't be the same problem.
Sort of like it's my issue with The Gifted that Robert Da Costa is an excellently written character, sympathetic, and wonderful. They just turned a black Brazilian billionaire into a Latin Mexican drug cartel enforcer.
edited 24th Apr '18 11:04:39 PM by CharlesPhipps
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

Well, okay, it's not his recipe, but it's a recipe nonetheless.
There's also a shawarma video on the same channel, made two weeks ago.
edited 24th Apr '18 4:43:19 PM by Anomalocaris20
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!