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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#85276: Apr 23rd 2018 at 6:56:44 AM

"Do you want her thrown in space jail? Space jail blew up. There is no space jail Also she helps start an uprising against the Grandmaster and then helps overthrow Hela and then dedicates her life to helping some refugees "

Well....good for her...a slaver with a change of heart.....hurray.....

And about the specter, I feel more a retcon actually and I dont think it was a good one because it show how careless Thanos is with the stones he is so devote to find.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#85277: Apr 23rd 2018 at 7:02:10 AM

The scepter seems like a retcon that only half works. It explains the scepter’s mind control whammy, but its involvement with the creation of Ultron is wayyyy too vague, and it doesn’t make sense for Thanos to give Loki an infinity stone to go get a second infinity stone. Unless that was supposed to show colossal arrogance and Ultron was always the back up plan????

edited 23rd Apr '18 7:02:29 AM by wisewillow

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#85278: Apr 23rd 2018 at 7:06:18 AM

Part of the fan theory is that the scepter was not only a tool for Loki to use to retrieve the tesseract if he failed but a way to ensure that Loki would hand over the tesseract if he succeeded

Some people point to Loki being somewhat ooc in Avengers. Others don't like the theory because it seems like it's letting Loki off the hook

Although he still tried to genocide that ice planet, scepter or no. And also he stuck his dad in a nursing home. Most heinous

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#85279: Apr 23rd 2018 at 7:06:20 AM

It actually makes perfect sense if we assume that the sceptre was programmed to force Loki to stick to his world controlling plan. Because that would explain what went wrong with Ultron, the programming "world control" went askew with Tony's "World protection" programming, ending up with a plan which involved destroying the world to protect it in some really f... up logic.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#85280: Apr 23rd 2018 at 7:07:24 AM

And all because Tony had copies of the Matrix on his lab computer, probably

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#85282: Apr 23rd 2018 at 7:30:00 AM

[up]That is probably the only right answer to everything wrong in the marvel universe.

And dammit matt! for the netflix one.tongue

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#85283: Apr 23rd 2018 at 7:31:50 AM

It's unclear to me whether [Ultron’s] goals are changing, or it's just a clarification.

Ultron confirms his goal changed when Tony asks him at the climax: “what happened to the mission?” (meaning the original directive to save humanity) and Ultron responds: “I’ve moved on from your mission. I’m free.” I think it’s supposed to be after Black Widow captures his new body and the Maximoffs leave him that Ultron loses it and decides “screw it, I’m killing everybody”, but it hardly matters because his plan before then was already ‘meteor the whole planet’. tongue

ctually, I'm not even sure if Loki's scepter is the same weapon he had in the first Thor movie or if it first showed up in The Avengers

It’s from The Avengers. Gungnir from Thor looks different, and the scene where Loki communicates with the Chitauri leader The Other has The Other say: “You question us, you question him. He who put the scepter in your hand.” So Thanos loaned Loki the scepter and therefore the Mind Stone.

edited 23rd Apr '18 7:34:19 AM by Tuckerscreator

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#85284: Apr 23rd 2018 at 7:37:08 AM

The hinting that Thanos had anything to do with what was going in Ultron was lost on me.

Boy was that film a mess.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#85285: Apr 23rd 2018 at 7:38:33 AM

I mean its basically just "Thanos gave Loki the scepter" "the scepter eventually created Ultron" "Thanos expresses irritation when Ultron was defeated" "therefore there's a connection and Thanos was responsible for Ultron in some way"

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#85286: Apr 23rd 2018 at 8:09:09 AM

And dammit matt! for the netflix one.
But... that gets in the way of me blaming Danny Rand for everything. tongue

edited 23rd Apr '18 8:09:19 AM by Pseudopartition

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#85287: Apr 23rd 2018 at 8:09:41 AM

They can share the blame

But is there a single person who fucks up all of everything in Agents of SHIELD?

edited 23rd Apr '18 8:10:01 AM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#85288: Apr 23rd 2018 at 8:10:32 AM

I've only seen like five episodes, but I always just kind of assumed everything was Ward's fault.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#85289: Apr 23rd 2018 at 8:16:55 AM

Nah, they take turns in f... up. Except May. May cleans up behind them.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#85290: Apr 23rd 2018 at 8:29:28 AM

I mean its basically just "Thanos gave Loki the scepter" "the scepter eventually created Ultron" "Thanos expresses irritation when Ultron was defeated" "therefore there's a connection and Thanos was responsible for Ultron in some way"

That's the thing: that's a big assumption that requires plot simply not in the movie. It would make sense, but it's not present at all, and if that was the intention it was never developed.

It's a problem that Ultron suffers with in regards to a lot of things, but which is also in a couple other Marvel movies of that time like Iron Man 3: dancing the fine line between subtext that they want the viewer to figure out themselves, and outright not putting things in the movie and relying on the fans' theories to cover for a lack of development.

It doesn't help that Thanos possibly being responsible for Ultron also removes Ultron's agency and motivations in favor of a character who isn't even relevant to the movie (muddling him further and making the movie even weaker).

edited 23rd Apr '18 8:30:18 AM by KnownUnknown

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#85291: Apr 23rd 2018 at 8:34:35 AM

So, let's talk Age of Ultron. (I actually started typing this up right after my last post, because it was going to be one post but I accidentally hit "send" instead of "save". But this is going to take me a while because it's a long rambling post and I'm writing it when I have downtime at work. I'll go back and respond to any comments I missed in the meantime later.)

Movie starts strong. The attack on the Hydra base showing the Avengers working together as a team and putting their various abilities to their best use is one of the strongest scenes in the MCU since the climax of The Avengers. Each side is acting intelligently and reasonably given their capabilities and their goals, and the action is exciting without dragging on. I wasn't a huge fan of Tony leaving his suit in order to wander around (it seems like a pointless risk, given that he's in a fortress full of people who want to kill him and there's little he can do out of the suit that he can't do in the suit), but I liked how they'd actually developed a strategy for de-Hulking Banner once the fighting was finished. I don't think they handled the twins' powers very well — superspeed is a difficult power to handle without it being either super OP or super underwhelming (Age of Ultron went with the former, then negated the interesting question of how the Avengers are going to deal with it by having him switch sides and mooting the point). Also not a fan of the vaguely defined "fear powers" that come off more like a plot device than anything else.

The party scene was largely excellent, and it was a lot of fun to see the Avengers having fun instead of worrying about saving the world. The bit about Mjolnir, in particular, was great — it read exactly like the sort of thing a group of slightly drunk friends in a good mood would do. I do have to call shenanigans on the worthiness thing, though. I pretty much refuse to believe that Thor is worthy of the thing but Steve is not. (They could have written this off as something like "trying to lift Mjolnir just to prove that you can is inherently unworthy", but they never did.) Lots of good characterization all around, anyway.

I've seen people in this thread talk about not liking Bruce and Natasha's relationship, but I thought it was pretty well-handled. They're both a bit shy about it, but it seemed pretty natural to me (as opposed to say, Thor and Jane, which was terrible, or Tony and Pepper, which worked but was pushed too hard). There's clearly been some time between when we last saw Natasha and Bruce interacting (which was... hell, was it all the way back in the first Avengers movie?), and while they've developed some mutual interest while off-screen, they haven't moved beyond that, which seems reasonable to me.

Getting a bit out-of-order for the movie here, but I found it interesting that Natasha fucks things up by betraying Bruce's trust and calling out the Hulk without warning him or asking his permission, because she "needs the other guy". Dick movie, Natasha. I read this as the main reason why he vanishes without her at the end of the movie, though I have no idea if later movies follow up on this. I hope they do. Last thought on Hulk: they're very inconsistent about how dangerous and unpredictable he is while Hulked out. Even within this one movie, they go through "will take instruction if it involves smashing bad guys, but is still dangerous once the fight is over" (attack on the Hydra base), "is completely unreasonable and will attack anything and everything regardless" (the fight in Africa), "can be trusted to let an ally who just deliberately pissed him off ride on his shoulders" (beginning of the final fight) to "has enough self-control to sit quietly and calmly, and even operate computer controls, without de-Hulking" (after the final fight).

Anyway, getting back to where we left off: Ultron crashes the party! Ultron makes little sense and this is by far the weakest point of the movie. Okay, Tony meddling with forces he doesn't understand and can't control (aided and abetted by Bruce), fine. But how we go from "true sapient AI" to "kill all humans" in the space of about five minutes is unclear and pretty much just handwaved. Does he resent being "enslaved" by Tony's attempts to program him? Does he legitimately think that killing the Avengers (and/or humanity in general) will result in world peace? Is he insane and has no actual logic? Does he just want to test his own limitations and see how much he can improve himself? The movie suggest all of these, without really ever settling on one or showing any coherent development from one point to the next.

The arms dealer that has all the vibranium was an interesting character and I feel like he was wasted as a One-Scene Wonder — I could see him being a supporting antagonist, if not the main villain, for an entire movie. How the hell he got that much vibranium (and why he was just sitting on it instead of selling it or using it) also sounds like an interesting story that never gets touched on. The way he was totally unphased by the Twins was also great. It would have been interesting to see how they dealt with that, but instead the movie just has Ultron to show up and punch him. Sigh.

Then the Avengers arrive and punch Ultrons for a while, before falling to poorly-defined fear powers courtesy of the Twins. Most of them open interesting plot threads which are then ignored. The only one that has any long-lasting effect (besides Tony's from earlier in the movie) is Thor's, which inspires him to go on a brief vision-question and then gets ignored. Mostly a waste of time. I'm not sure I buy the idea that Hawkeye, a human who was mind-controlled once, can fight off fear-visions, but Thor, a god from a civilization where mind-control powers are a thing that are known and where techniques for dealing with them presumably exist, cannot.

Iron Man vs Hulk in the city was a colossal waste of time and should have been shortened dramatically, if not cut entirely. It didn't advance the plot, didn't develop anyone's character, and didn't serve any narrative purpose. It existed solely to insert another fight scene and to show off the Hulkbuster armor. I could forgive that if they'd at least done something clever with it, but it's just Iron Man and Hulk punching each other repeatedly. Would have been nice to see some alternative strategies for dealing with the Hulk. You don't win against the Hulk by fighting him, you win by calming him down. I can see two ways to accomplish this: put him in situations where his strength can't help him (lift him up in the air where he has no leverage, use things like aikido techniques that turn his own strength against him, etc), or approach him as a friend rather than an opponent (which is basically what Natasha does, but they act like she's the only one who can do it, for some reason).

Hanging out at the Barton family homestead was interesting and gave Hawkeye some desperately-needed character development. It was interesting and well-acted, though I wish it had been more plot-relevant. The relationship between Hawkeye and his wife felt natural, which was nice. Their feelings were deep, but subtle, and they felt like a stable long-term partnership, rather than beating our heads in with "LOOK HOW MUCH THEY LOVE EACH OTHER, GUYS!". The fact that Natasha has met them before was also a nice touch, given how much closer she is to Hawkeye than the rest of the team.

Then things get weird. Ultron wants to make a semi-biological body for himself, but incorporating both a bunch of vibranium and the Mind stone! (This prompts another long gratuitous action scene, though at least this one is plot-relevant.) The Avengers steal the body and decide to use it to make their own AI (again), except good this time, because Jarvis or something. This makes no sense, but Bruce goes along with it anyway! Which prompts infighting (like, actual fighting, smashing up the lab) until Thor returns from his vision-quest and Frankensteins the thing awake! Because apparently all the AI lacked was a bolt of lighting. I'm still not actually sure if that was intentional on Thor's part or if he was trying to kill it. Oh also Tony has a bunch of spare AI software that's not Jarvis lying around for some reason. Okay, I guess?

Now we have Vision! Who basically seems to be the Mind stone given sapience. And is apparently pretty chill? Good thing we have an infallible "is this dude cool?" detector in the form of Mjolnir. Good job, plot device, you have served your purpose. Anyway, I hope you liked Vision, because that's all the time he gets except for some more generic punching. (Also I'm pretty sure he teleports away with the last Ultron body, rather than blowing it up, at the end of the movie, but that's neither here nor there.) Vision is an interesting concept that the movie does almost nothing with. Is he really another AI like Ultron? Why does he turn out so differently? Or is he more the Mind stone? In that case, do all the Infinity Stones have intelligences, or is the Mind stone unique that way because, you know, Mind? (And does that mean that the other stones have unique shenanigans of their own?) None of this is really addressed at all, much less given any satisfying answers.

And the rest of the movie is more gratuitous action. Fight the infinite number of Ultrons! It's not bad, overall, it's just too much and goes on for too long. Having the speedster twin die instead of just, you know, pull Hawkeye and the kid Hawkeye was protecting out of the way (which he'd shown the ability to do before) was a cop out and seemed like a waste of the character. Fury just randomly showing up with the helicarrier was ridiculous, but having War Machine there was a nice touch (I mean, why wouldn't he, right?), though it does raise the question of why he didn't bring Falcon along for the ride too.

Most of the epilogue stuff I've already mentioned, but Tony apparently quitting the Avengers seemed arbitrary and I'm not sure I buy it, while Steve deciding that he's just a born soldier and doesn't need/deserve a life outside of that I definitely don't buy. The new Avengers seems like an interesting concept, but I'm not sure how well they'll actually follow through on the next movies.

Ultimately, I'd say strong character moments outweigh the mostly-arbitrary plot and make the movie a fun watch, which is why I call it "good, but with a bunch of problems" rather than "just okay, but with some good bits".

edited 23rd Apr '18 8:36:38 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#85292: Apr 23rd 2018 at 8:51:53 AM

Honestly, the LAST problem I have with Ao U is Ultron's "motivation". He is NOT a human. He isn't even truly an AI. He is a malfunctioning software. A particular dangerous one.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#85293: Apr 23rd 2018 at 8:52:47 AM

About ultron turning evil....the best explanation is that he just read the internet for five minutestongue.

The south africa fight not only was pointless but it kinda put Wanda in a total villian territory and the movie expect you to forget all that....just because, in fact Civil war kinda act like none of that happen, even when Bruce was REALLY piss about it.

And the helicarrier ex machina is probably the WORST scene in the entire Marvel cinematic universe so far since it clearly there to cop up the thread of ultron and reduce things to a "avenger smash!" time, it was pretty damn awfull.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#85294: Apr 23rd 2018 at 8:56:33 AM

The arms dealer is Ulysses Klaue, who is a central Black Panther villain. He does return for a bigger role in BP, along with a sweet robot arm and more backstory on how and why he stole all that Vibranium.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#85295: Apr 23rd 2018 at 9:07:33 AM

Honestly, the LAST problem I have with Ao U is Ultron's "motivation". He is NOT a human. He isn't even truly an AI. He is a malfunctioning software. A particular dangerous one.

He's a primary character in a film before everything else, so what specifically he is in-universe is completely irrelevant to whether he needs to have a decent motivation.

His actions need to make sense. If he's supposed to be inconsistent, that should be set up specifically as a character trait, rather than him just being inconsistent. At it is, it comes off as the writers not knowing what to do with him.

edited 23rd Apr '18 9:08:55 AM by KnownUnknown

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#85296: Apr 23rd 2018 at 9:26:13 AM

So how are we all doing in not reading any Infinity War spoilers?

Only 4 more days to go. We can do this, guys! grin

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#85297: Apr 23rd 2018 at 9:31:55 AM

Actually pretty good. The only things I've found out so far are things that Marvel has officially let us know beforehand.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#85298: Apr 23rd 2018 at 9:33:11 AM

There's nothing reliable yet as far as spoilers go. Certainly nothing highly visible at any rate.

edited 23rd Apr '18 9:34:18 AM by LordVatek

This song needs more love.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#85299: Apr 23rd 2018 at 9:33:15 AM

Already got my ticket for Friday.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012

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