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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#85001: Apr 19th 2018 at 9:43:39 PM

[up][up]Zola knows all the memes, and made half of them.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#85002: Apr 19th 2018 at 9:56:12 PM

"When the memes did not cooperate...the memes were changed."

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#85003: Apr 19th 2018 at 10:01:27 PM

I think that Nick Fury wants to save SHIELD but Captain America convinces him it has to be dead and buried.

I think the movie shows the idea is there will never be a new SHIELD.

That, instead, the Avengers permanently replace them.

A group with no secrets.

edited 19th Apr '18 10:01:38 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#85004: Apr 19th 2018 at 10:04:35 PM

HAH!

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#85005: Apr 19th 2018 at 10:09:22 PM

Except, y'know, Agents of SHIELD's still canon to the MCU.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#85006: Apr 19th 2018 at 10:12:25 PM

Also there was that kinda-sorta-SHIELD-that's-really-one-Helicarrier-crew in Age of Ultron.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#85007: Apr 19th 2018 at 10:26:27 PM

Featuring special guest bridge staff member That-One-Guy-Who-Wouldn't-Launch-Project-Insight-And-Almost-Got-Shot-By-Rumlow.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#85008: Apr 19th 2018 at 10:27:39 PM

Ah, you mean Wait-That's-Not-Shia-LaBeouf.

edited 19th Apr '18 10:29:38 PM by Tuckerscreator

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#85010: Apr 19th 2018 at 11:39:33 PM

[up] Except, y'know, Agents of SHIELD's still canon to the MCU.

And will never ever have anything ever mentioned from Inhumans to its war with Hydra.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#85011: Apr 19th 2018 at 11:40:48 PM

Yeah SHIELD for all intents and purposes does not exist in the movies anymore.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#85012: Apr 20th 2018 at 3:47:53 AM

I mean, I took all of that to suggest that Bucky was still in there, and many other people did to.
Well, obviously that's what the movie intended. I'm saying I think they did a very poor job of selling it.

It's worth noting that a real life reason for why Cap's strength and acrobatics are much more pronounced in The Winter Soldier is because he was viewed as fairly underpowered in The Avengers. A lot of fans didn't like him struggling to hold his own against Loki, contributing little combat-wise in the Helicarrier attack, and then having the "mook cleanup" job during the climactic fight. (Me, I liked that he was the one most directly saving civilians during the battle.) So the considerable ramp-up of his abilities is in direct response to the fans.
Ah, that makes some sense. I wish they'd found a better way to address that, though. Like you said, I liked the fact that Cap didn't have as much raw power as the others, but still found ways to be useful. It helps differentiate him from the other Avengers. Iron Man and Thor already have a problem with both being very similar "fly around and hit stuff really hard, deal with whatever hits back by facetanking it" types of fighters (and Hulk is differentiated primarily in not being able to fly). Cap's definitely a lower Super Weight, but that's not a bad thing.

Yeah, gonna have to say that pretty much everything Native Jovian's said about Bucky is not just subjectively but also objectively (per director commentary and the like) incorrect.
There's no such thing as "objectively" when it comes to interpretation. It might go against the creator's intentions, but Death of the Author is a thing. It sounds like they hit the "Bucky is Still In There Somewhere™" point harder in later movies, but as of Winter Soldier, I don't buy it. It comes off more like the Winter Soldier has a handful of Bucky's memories and his facing off with Cap triggers some of them and between that and being active for too long in one stretch, he decides to go rogue from Hydra. But none of that makes him Bucky.

Yeah SHIELD for all intents and purposes does not exist in the movies anymore.
That... strikes me as a very odd decision, and I don't think I like it. I took Black Widow's comments at the congressional committee at the end of Winter Soldier to mean that SHIELD was still needed and she was going to step into Fury's shoes and rebuild it. She says "you know where to find me", after all, which is the exact opposite of her usual MO. Ditto her comments to Cap about "all my covers are blown" (ie, she can't rely on her covert identities anymore, so she has to go actually above board, rather than just "still under the table, but for SHIELD instead of the KGB"). If SHIELD is actually dead and gone for real, that seems like a waste. They never actually do anything. They fight themselves in The Avengers because Loki brainwashing, and then they fight themselves in Winter Soldier because Hydra infiltration, and then... that's it? That's really disappointing. Like I mentioned earlier, that sounds like something that would have worked better considerably later in the MCU. That's something that would be really effective at the end of the second act, but not at the beginning of it. Act one is SHIELD's formation and getting off to a rocky start. Act two is SHIELD coming into its own and proving itself valuable as an organization, independent of the Avengers. Act two climax is SHIELD overreaching and becoming a threat rather than a response to threats, and being destroyed as a result. Act three is a post-SHIELD world, and learning to deal with major threats without a shadowy covert agency backing you up.

If they torch all that before we even get to act two proper, then that's a huge amount of wasted potential. It becomes "act one: SHIELD off to a rocky start; act two: SHIELD actively becomes a liability rather than an asset, gets burned down as a result; act three: whatever, all we need is more superheroes, I guess." Unfortunate.

Edit —

Something else I forgot to mention. I found the climax where Cap just let Bucky beat him to death really unsatisfying. I get that he wants to save Bucky, and that he's willing to risk his life to do it, but that's a really dumb way to go about it. "I'm just going to stop fighting and let the plot take over" is stupid. What I'd much rather have seen is "Bucky, you're sick. Hydra brainwashed you. I want to help you. We'll get you treated, make you well again. But part of your sickness means you think you have to fight me, so I'm going to have to beat you senseless first. Sorry." And then he does that. Would have made a nice counterpoint where he can show off his kung-fu after spending most of the movie just shooting dudes, too — especially if Bucky shows no such restraint and keeps trying to shoot him.

Edit Edit —

Also, where the hell was Hawkeye during all of this? He, Cap, and Black Widow seem to be the only Avengers that are also full-time SHIELD agents, so his absence during a SHIELD-focused movie is rather conspicuous. His character would have been a pretty good match for this kind of action, too (as opposed to some of the other Avengers, who could just punch their way through the entire plot no problem). Seems like a missed opportunity.

edited 20th Apr '18 4:44:40 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#85013: Apr 20th 2018 at 6:58:24 AM

Hawkeye was written in for a scene where he clashes with Cap right after he’s escaped from SHIELD, and fakes a loss so that Steve can escape, but it was cut for time.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#85014: Apr 20th 2018 at 7:25:34 AM

I heard it was an actor availability thing

Until otherwise confirmed I'm going to assume Hawkeye was on his farm, far from any cell signal and he's going to be flabbergasted when he gets back

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#85016: Apr 20th 2018 at 7:32:45 AM

He has a brief and horrifying moment when he has to wonder who is paying his salary now

His retirement plan was ironically not very robust!

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#85017: Apr 20th 2018 at 8:28:03 AM

Poor Hawkeye. He needs his SHIELD paycheck, dangit!

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#85018: Apr 20th 2018 at 8:39:17 AM

I assumed the Helicarrier crew we saw in Age of Ultron wasn't really a reformed SHIELD. Just that, when SHIELD collapsed, there was still one Helicarrier sitting on the ground somewhere (I think Fury explicitly refers to taking it out of "mothballs") and Fury called up a few old friends to get it in the air.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#85019: Apr 20th 2018 at 9:00:09 AM

Well, yes. But those friends happend to be lead by Coulson.....

(Can someone warn me when new information drops so that I can get out in time?).

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#85020: Apr 20th 2018 at 10:42:01 AM

None of the ex-SHIELD people who show up in AOU were connected with Coulson. The films and the TV Shows are basically two separated continuities at this point, since NOTHING in any of the shows has EVER been mentioned in ANY of the films to date.

So in the film, Fury just got Maria Hill, that one SHIELD guy who stood up to Crossbones in TWS, and a few other old buddies and decided to go help out The Avengers. I never took it as "SHIELD is back."

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#85021: Apr 20th 2018 at 10:43:12 AM

Agents of SHIELD reveals that they were connected to Coulson.

But it was so off hand that it didn't really matter or land.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#85022: Apr 20th 2018 at 10:48:37 AM

There are facts from the TV shows which made it into the movies, though. Ie the fact that Peggy became the leader of Shield was first introduced in a one-shot and then expanded in the TV show before it became a known fact in the movie verse. And speaking of Agent Carter, Civil war has a direct reference to Agent Carter season 2 when Sharon Carter mentions that Aunt Peggy gifted her the first garter holster (Peggy in turn got her first from Anna, Jarvis' wife).

The connection between the TV shows and the various movie franchise are actually pretty similar. You don't need to watch the ironman movies to understand the Thor movies, but if you do it, it gives you additional background information. So to claim that the TV shows are not part of the MCU is pretty much like claiming that the various movie franchises don't belong in the same continuity. They obviously do.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#85023: Apr 20th 2018 at 10:53:49 AM

Honestly AOU is where they probably could have got away with an AOS Easter egg I think. Yeah you probably wouldn't want Coulson to be there since that'd be confusing to people who don't watch the show. But they could have maybe had May, Fitz, and Simmons on that Hellicarrier with Fury and Hill. You don't even have to draw attention to them, they'd just be there. And the people who match the show would like the little nod, whereas if you don't watch, then they're just some ex-SHIELD people that Fury got to help out, so no biggie.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#85024: Apr 20th 2018 at 11:01:06 AM

As far as the films are concerned agent coulson is dead,so him showing up anywhere would be weird

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#85025: Apr 20th 2018 at 11:03:02 AM

[up][up] Yes, but apparently this is difficult to do due to the different shooting schedule. Basically when the scene on the bridge was filmed the script for the episodes surrounding Ao S wasn't even written yet. Hence the writers had no idea which characters could reasonably be around.

So, a really funny summary about everything which happened in the MCU so far (including comic book tie ins):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG-ZtsbUQKs

It's nearly three hours long, but well worth watching.

edited 20th Apr '18 11:03:14 AM by Swanpride


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