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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#84976: Apr 19th 2018 at 8:16:39 PM

Why would Zola betray HYDRA? He's been around since the Red Skull days and is the whole reason HYDRA still exists as a tumor inside Shield. HE set the whole Project Insight scheme up.
Because he set it up and then they left him to rot in a bunker for the next few decades. He's bored and angry and wants to punish them all for abandoning him. He's not going to be the most loyal SHIELD supporter in the world, but if they'll put him in some newer hardware and give him something to do so he's not tempted to delete himself out of sheer boredom, then he'll at least humor them.

Besides, I never got the impression that Zola was a Hydra diehard in The First Avenger. He seemed to be in it for the science, and by the time he realized what was going on, he was too deep to back out. Certainly he seemed to obey Red Skull more out of fear than respect.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#84977: Apr 19th 2018 at 8:18:17 PM

I think that's fair to point out the characterization of Zola is...a bit different between the two Cap films, yes. That's something we've touched on before, too.

I don't really think he would join SHIELD, though.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84978: Apr 19th 2018 at 8:20:24 PM

Maybe after being made into data on a reel to reel he secretly longed for death.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#84979: Apr 19th 2018 at 8:22:11 PM

Because he set it up and then they left him to rot in a bunker for the next few decades. He's bored and angry and wants to punish them all for abandoning him. He's not going to be the most loyal SHIELD supporter in the world, but if they'll put him in some newer hardware and give him something to do so he's not tempted to delete himself out of sheer boredom, then he'll at least humor them.

He seemed pretty happy with his job as creepy Hydra scientist who writes murder algorithms. He was part of the Hydra team. He wasn’t “abandoned,” he had his own home in his evil computer bank.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#84980: Apr 19th 2018 at 8:23:52 PM

Because he set it up and then they left him to rot in a bunker for the next few decades.

He's not rotting. He's surviving, as he himself points out making him into a computer was so he wouldn't die ("In 1972 I received a terminal diagnosis. Science could not save my body. My mind, however, that was worth saving."). Why would he be ungrateful that he essentially became immortal?

He's also not rotting in the sense that he has a internet connection. He dredges up several facts he'd have no way of accessing if he was landlocked to that basement. The most noticeable of which is Nick Fury's death and file, going by the fact he died mere hours before that scene.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#84981: Apr 19th 2018 at 8:25:43 PM

Given that he's the one actually behind the algorithm that formed the evil plan of Winter Soldier, a very recent development, it's difficult to believe that he was dumped in the facility and left to rot. There's no indication that Zola even wanted to leave, and given Marvel's interest in having his android body appear in Ant-Man, it's possible that we might even find he's alive and kicking one of these days.

I read his role as him being the actual Bigger Bad of the movie, but whose state means that he cannot actively leave his vulnerable position: kind of like Sauron. He's the one behind everything, but he can't take an active role in anything any more.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#84982: Apr 19th 2018 at 8:27:17 PM

What if Zola and Ultron had a data collision while navigating the internet, creating Zoltron the Swiss Nazi Pinnochio Snark-Robot?

edited 19th Apr '18 8:27:36 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#84983: Apr 19th 2018 at 8:27:30 PM

I choose to interpret Zola as a true believer of the Hydra cause - he simply realized that Red Skull was insane.

[up] I choose to believe that he beamed his consciousness into space and will later become the Kree Supreme Intelligence.

edited 19th Apr '18 8:28:19 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#84984: Apr 19th 2018 at 8:32:49 PM

I really hope he shows up in Ant-Man and the Wasp. He could be the person who hired Ghost.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#84985: Apr 19th 2018 at 8:35:21 PM

This makes sense in universe. In CA: TFA, no one trains Steve. He’s with the military, yeah, but all he knows is basic punching etc. In CA: TWS, he’s been awake for a couple years, and he’s had lots of time to learn various martial arts. It’d be silly if he DIDN’T improve/expand his fighting style.
My complaint isn't that he's doing more martial arts stuff instead of just punching people, my complaint is that he's doing martial arts stuff instead of just shooting people (which he did plenty of in The First Avenger), and that his martial arts stuff consists of impressive-looking but impractical moves like spins and flips, instead of the sort of Boring, but Practical techniques you'd expect an actual soldier to use.

Not sure which fight you’re referring to? Who did he go 4-5 rounds of fisticuffs with?
Random French dude on the boat in the beginning of the movie. Right before he stumbled onto Black Widow downloading intel instead of helping escort hostages.

Yeah, it’s just his best friend from childhood, basically his brother, and now his only connection to the 40s. Why would that be at all poignant?
The movie does a terrible job of selling it. Mostly because it was basically a completely different character. They don't even look alike. The Winter Soldier is completely unsympathetic. If they wanted the audience to like him, then they should have had him, say, approach Steve on his own or somehow help him out before the big reveal. As is, he's just a brainwashed murderer.

I don't really think he would join SHIELD, though.
I'm not talking about 100% joining the team and becoming a good guy. I'm talking about he gets to live on a SHIELD laptop or something and they occasionally try to bludgeon him into helping them out. He messes with them because it amuses him, but has to walk the line of being more useful than he is annoying, or else they just pull his plug.

Various replies about Zola
I know that what I'm suggesting doesn't make sense for Zola as he appears. I'm saying that Zola as he appears was dumb and boring, and am suggesting a version that I think would be more interesting.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#84986: Apr 19th 2018 at 8:41:18 PM

Cap shooting people would be boring. He typically only shoots on rare occasions; he tries not to kill in the first few action scenes.

His fist fight with Batroc is pretty much Steve playing with his food before kicking it in the face.

Agree to disagree on Bucky. I still say it’s well set up and you have no soul tongue

The Winter Soldier is completely unsympathetic. If they wanted the audience to like him, then they should have had him, say, approach Steve on his own or somehow help him out before the big reveal. As is, he's just a brainwashed murderer.

Emphasis on brainwashed. Also, uhm, most of the fandom would probably disagree. Check out the winter soldier or Bucky tags on tumblr. Woobie might be an understatement.

edited 19th Apr '18 8:46:07 PM by wisewillow

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#84987: Apr 19th 2018 at 8:42:23 PM

The movie does a terrible job of selling it. Mostly because it was basically a completely different character. They don't even look alike. The Winter Soldier is completely unsympathetic. If they wanted the audience to like him, then they should have had him, say, approach Steve on his own or somehow help him out before the big reveal. As is, he's just a brainwashed murderer.

...Uh huh.

Funny, most people seem to think that being brainwashed and tortured into becoming a murderer is what makes him so sympathetic.

Oh God! Natural light!
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#84988: Apr 19th 2018 at 8:44:05 PM

Personally, Zola as a chilling robotic mastermind beats Zola as a funny robot sidekick any day of the week.

I do agree they could have saved him for a future outing, but the idea of him joining SHIELD in any form doesn't really seem interesting at all.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#84989: Apr 19th 2018 at 8:45:24 PM

I will say that Zola the funny robot sidekick is pretty at odds with the tone they're trying to establish.

Not to mention, letting Nazis into their midst was exactly what caused this mess to begin with.

Oh God! Natural light!
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#84990: Apr 19th 2018 at 8:45:35 PM

I think there's an Alternative Aesop Interpretation which may or may not be on the YMMV page that a lot of how you interpret the movie is whether you think of Hydra and SHIELD as two separate things. My interpretation is that Zola is every bit as much a part of SHIELD as Peggy Carter and there's really no difference between Hydra and SHIELD. They're the two sides of the Military Industrial Complex as well as the Cold War's agencies.

Which is why the Captain had to destroy it all.

edited 19th Apr '18 8:47:24 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#84992: Apr 19th 2018 at 8:56:31 PM

[up][up]I'm kind of on board for a somewhat weaker version of that. I forget if it's in Winter Soldier or Agent Carter (I think the latter?), but they explicitly tie Zola becoming a Boxed Crook to the real life Operation Paperclip, and I feel like if you look at their being a "story of SHIELD" from Agent Carter to Civil War, it's a pretty depressing story of how the morally compromised decision to let Zola get away with his crimes and make use of his intelligence was an original sin that set up consequences that eventually came due. Even more so if you assume (as I do) that Agent Carter indicates that Zola and Fentoff/Faustus jointly founded Hydra and were behind turning Bucky into the Winter Soldier.

Like it's weird because I love Peggy, but it's hard for me not to conclude that her life's work was a failure because she (or at least her co-workers) were willing to employ evil in pursuit of the greater good.

edited 19th Apr '18 8:57:38 PM by Hodor2

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84993: Apr 19th 2018 at 9:02:29 PM

Well, they're right. Bucky is kind of boring and flat in Winter Soldier. It's in Civil War that he starts getting good.

Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#84994: Apr 19th 2018 at 9:06:42 PM

[up][up]I think it was in Winter Soldier; I seem to remember roboZola referencing Paperclip directly, and I think in Agent Carter he just says a line or two to Faustus in their cell.

I do wish the show had dug more into the founding of SHIELD and how it was in trouble from the start.

edited 19th Apr '18 9:07:15 PM by Pseudopartition

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#84995: Apr 19th 2018 at 9:09:38 PM

I think its' an interesting argument that Hydra got away with 90% of what they did not because they were evil geniuses but gathering power, doing acts of terrorism, murder, and being involved in shady shit is what intelligence agencies DO.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#84996: Apr 19th 2018 at 9:18:45 PM

So, Cap shooting people would be boring.
It's certainly not impossible to make an interesting action scene with gunplay instead of punching. Hell, I'm not even saying that Cap shouldn't punch with the best of them. I'm saying that action scenes that focus on being visually flashy rather than efficient and practical doesn't really seem appropriate for a professional soldier.

He typically only shoots on rare occasions; he tries not to kill in the first few action scenes.
He sure as hell didn't have a problem with shooting people in his first movie. And the first few action scenes involved him kicking people overboard, on a ship in the open ocean, at night. Those men are almost certainly dead, especially given that no one seemed to be in any hurry to go fish them out. I do feel like you're right in that they wanted Cap to seem more morally upright by beating people up without shooting them (in The First Avenger he uses a gun because it's WWII, you're allowed to shoot Nazis), I just think it's a dumb decision.

His fist fight with Batroc is pretty much Steve playing with his food before kicking it in the face.
So Captain America took a few minutes off to toy with an enemy in the middle of a mission, two minutes before lecturing Black Widow about the importance of staying focused and on task? That... doesn't seem very in-character to me.

Funny, most people seem to think that being brainwashed and tortured into becoming a murderer is what makes him so sympathetic.
It would if we saw him struggling with it. We get one scene of confusion as he half-remembers things, and then he saves Cap at the very end (after doing his best to kill him ten seconds earlier), but then abandoning him and wandering off on his own. Other than that, nothing. As it stands, it seems more like Bucky is already dead. Hydra erased him and there's only the Winter Soldier now. I had sympathy for Bucky, but I don't have any for the Winter Soldier.

Personally, Zola as a chilling robotic mastermind beats Zola as a funny robot sidekick any day of the week.
What I'm suggesting is Zola the chilling robotic Boxed Crook, not Zola the wacky Nazi comic relief. But honestly, anything's better than showing him for one scene and then blowing him up.

I think there's an Alternative Aesop Interpretation which may or may not be on the YMMV page that a lot of how you interpret the movie is whether you think of Hydra and SHIELD as two separate things. My interpretation is that Zola is every bit as much a part of SHIELD as Peggy Carter and there's really no difference between Hydra and SHIELD. They're the two sides of the Military Industrial Complex as well as the Cold War's agencies.

Which is why the Captain had to destroy it all.

I read it as a relatively small core of Hydra loyalists subverting SHIELD from the inside. I'm not sure what actual percentage we're talking about here, but it obviously wasn't enough to openly take over, or they would have just done that. Presumably the Hydra agents were promoted into key positions where they had outsized influence, but most of the rank-and-file SHIELD agents were not actually Hydra.

As far as Cap blowing it all up, that seems to be undercut by Black Widow essentially declaring that she's going to rebuild SHIELD (but right this time). This is another problem with the conspiracy plotline, incidentally. How is she going to ensure that Hydra doesn't get a foothold again? (Chances are, she isn't, and Hydra agents within SHIELD is going to be a plot point again later. And it will annoy me intensely when it happens.)

I forget if it's in Winter Soldier or Agent Carter (I think the latter?), but they explicitly tie Zola becoming a Boxed Crook to the real life Operation Paperclip
Yeah, robo-Zola namedrops Operation Paperclip specifically in Winter Soldier.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#84997: Apr 19th 2018 at 9:19:51 PM

It's Black Widow who verbally references Operation Paperclip and later Zola goes in more detail about it ("They thought I could help their cause. I also helped my own.")

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#84998: Apr 19th 2018 at 9:37:08 PM

It would if we saw him struggling with it. We get one scene of confusion as he half-remembers things, and then he saves Cap at the very end (after doing his best to kill him ten seconds earlier), but then abandoning him and wandering off on his own. Other than that, nothing. As it stands, it seems more like Bucky is already dead. Hydra erased him and there's only the Winter Soldier now. I had sympathy for Bucky, but I don't have any for the Winter Soldier.

I mean, I took all of that to suggest that Bucky was still in there, and many other people did to.

Look, you're free to feel however you like about the movie, but I must confess, I think your takes are...bad.

Oh God! Natural light!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#84999: Apr 19th 2018 at 9:37:56 PM

It's worth noting that a real life reason for why Cap's strength and acrobatics are much more pronounced in The Winter Soldier is because he was viewed as fairly underpowered in The Avengers. A lot of fans didn't like him struggling to hold his own against Loki, contributing little combat-wise in the Helicarrier attack, and then having the "mook cleanup" job during the climactic fight. (Me, I liked that he was the one most directly saving civilians during the battle.) So the considerable ramp-up of his abilities is in direct response to the fans.

He's also not rotting in the sense that he has a internet connection.

I like this idea that Zola kept himself entertained for 40 years with the Internet. [lol]

edited 19th Apr '18 9:38:30 PM by Tuckerscreator

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#85000: Apr 19th 2018 at 9:41:46 PM

Yeah, gonna have to say that pretty much everything Native Jovian's said about Bucky is not just subjectively but also objectively (per director commentary and the like) incorrect. The whole point is that despite HYDRA trying their absolute damnedest to torture and brutalize it out of him at every chance possible, and the movie makes it evident that they tried very, very hard, Bucky absolutely is still in there. Sebastian Stan's acting chops tend to be centered around his physical skills rather than his eloquent speech abilities anyway, so even though he doesn't have a lot of lines, a lot of his internal struggle is communicated via his face and body language instead. And you do see that anguish from time to time, even if his abuse by HYDRA makes it difficult to voice it aloud.

And I thought the fights were actually a lot more grounded in The Winter Soldier than The First Avenger. There's a lot more feats of physical dexterity for sure, but on the whole the combat feels a lot more raw and with higher stakes in comparison to the floaty and heavily choreographed action pieces of TFA, where yes the action is more subdued, but it comes across as a result of technical and budget limitations rather than an artistic choice.

Regarding Zola, it's the same writers behind both movies, but I agree with Karkat's take that, looking back it seems like the suggestion is that his issue with Red Skull was less being a Punch-Clock Villain and more a difference of philosophy, where he felt that Skull was too focused on hijacking HYDRA for his own goals, while he himself would stay truer to its original vision of Lawful Evil.

edited 19th Apr '18 10:10:25 PM by AlleyOop


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