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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#84951: Apr 19th 2018 at 2:17:16 PM

>Matthew Renner
Was that on purpose? [lol]

@Native Jovian
Looking forward to your thoughts on TWS.

@Ant-Man and the Wasp
So Ghost is being described as the Big Bad now? Interesting. I was under the impression she was going to be The Dragon in league with characters like Sonny Burch.

edited 19th Apr '18 2:26:12 PM by AlleyOop

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#84953: Apr 19th 2018 at 2:29:08 PM

[up][up]It wasn't, I just legit had no idea his first name was Jeremy :p

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#84954: Apr 19th 2018 at 2:30:31 PM

Every time Ghost is mentioned as being the antagonist of AM&tW, my mind immediately pictures a different Ghost and I can't help but laugh at the idea.

edited 19th Apr '18 2:32:11 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#84955: Apr 19th 2018 at 2:52:02 PM

I think Hawkeye is treated as not very charismatic because he's supposed to be a supporting player.

He'd probably shine if he had his own movie.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#84956: Apr 19th 2018 at 2:55:39 PM

Someone suggested that it was them not wanting another cocky, sarcastic guy on the team when Tony was already there. People forget that in the original comics, Tony was generally written as far more serious than RDJ's portrayal, while Hawkeye was the snarky one.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84957: Apr 19th 2018 at 2:56:43 PM

Its a shame about the way rights were split up because none can defeat Beast, the Snarkiest Avenger

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#84959: Apr 19th 2018 at 3:04:19 PM

Ah man we're doing the Clone Saga now, aren't we?

This song needs more love.
TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#84960: Apr 19th 2018 at 3:23:20 PM

[up][up] You're not fooling me! I already (kinda?) spoiled myself on Deadpool 2. (I say kinda because apparently it's from leaks I've never really read directly.) I won't forgive myself if somehow spoiled Infinity War for myself.

8 days.

8 more days.

I just need to power through.

edited 19th Apr '18 3:24:19 PM by TargetmasterJoe

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#84961: Apr 19th 2018 at 3:26:53 PM

> Ah man we're doing the Clone Saga now, aren't we?

Begun it has,the Clone saga

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84962: Apr 19th 2018 at 3:31:30 PM

Yoda would make the Clone Saga awesome.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84963: Apr 19th 2018 at 3:34:48 PM

Hey, if the MCU salvaged Civil War, it can salvage the Clone Saga.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#84964: Apr 19th 2018 at 3:36:16 PM

Oh that's do able,what what about..One More Day?

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84965: Apr 19th 2018 at 3:42:59 PM

I've heard that the Ultimate Clone Saga was betterish. Shorter most certainly. More well regarded.

The Real Clone Saga miniseries wasn't bad either.

So its doable.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#84966: Apr 19th 2018 at 4:10:04 PM

Ultimate Clone Saga is actually pretty damn good. It benefits from having a very clearly conceived beginning, middle and end, whereas the Clone Saga went on for way too long and was written without any ending conceived (which meant they had to make shit up as time went on).

Plus it could be how they introduce Jessica Drew into the MCU.

edited 19th Apr '18 4:10:17 PM by comicwriter

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#84967: Apr 19th 2018 at 4:14:16 PM

Well, they had an ending.

It just got abandoned as they went on.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#84968: Apr 19th 2018 at 4:28:25 PM

[up]x4 I won't say it's impossible but I doubt it. Civil War and the Clone Saga work on a conceptual level (mostly). One More Day does not.

This song needs more love.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#84969: Apr 19th 2018 at 7:55:45 PM

So, Winter Soldier was... alright? A bunch of the details were dumb, but it held together on the whole.

Let's talk continuity! What's that? I'm not sure the MCU writers know either. I'm pretty sure in earlier stuff it was implied that SHIELD was newly formed, or at least no one had never heard of them. I distinctly remember a joke about how they hadn't even some up with the SHIELD acronym and were still using its long-form name. Now they've been around since the '50s! They have a giant Pentagon-esque building! Okay, they had a helicarrier and crew in The Avengers, but one secret (if major) project and a few hundred crewmen at max seems about right. I don't really like the idea of SHIELD as a big bureaucratic agency like the FBI or the CIA. A (relatively) small, dedicated force that punches way above its weight class in isolated incidents but can't fight an entire war on its own is more interesting.

My biggest complaint about the movie overall is actually the action. The first Captain America was very down to earth and practical — he carried a gun in addition to his shield and did very little in the way of acrobatics or showy moves. It was all very straightforward and to the point, even with the shield-ricochet trick shot shenanigans. In contrast, Winter Soldier was nothing but ridiculous spinkicks and pointless backflips. There was little about them that was interesting or added anything but "hey, look at our huge choreography budget", and virtually all of them dragged on too long. Hell, the first big scene was Cap going four or five rounds of fisticuffs with a normal dude, despite having thrown people twenty feet with one kick in earlier scenes. (Remember what I said about continuity?) They also seemed to have amped up Cap's physical abilities in general — jumping out of airplanes, falling a dozen stories without notable injury, falling off an overpass, through a bus, which then crashes into another bus and flips over, etc etc. I can buy it with Iron Man (even though he'd actually be pulp inside the armor) and Thor (he's a god), but with Captain America it stretches suspension of disbelief.

On to the plot! I didn't have a problem with the basic "Hydra faction inside SHIELD" premise, but I think they would have done better playing up the "got to smoke out the traitors" angle rather than the "just beat everyone up" angle. One of the big problem with conspiracy plotlines is that it's easy to turn "we don't know how much influence they have" into "they can do whatever the fuck they want", and Winter Soldier dove straight into that trap without looking back. Dozens of fake cops deployed on short notice? Sure! Heavily armed strike teams shooting up the city with no worries about official response whatsoever? Why not! Magic satellite targeting system that's just going to murder a hundred thousand people at once? Yeah, fine, no one will mind that! We'll just say they were all terrorists or something. People will buy it.

I don't give a shit about Bucky. Yes, I know, Cap is very sad about the whole thing. I don't care. The entire thing left me cold.

Movie wasn't all bad, though! Cap's new friend with the rocket-wing suit was cool. The scenes of chaos inside SHIELD as the two sides squared off and starting shooting each other were well done. The part with the German Swiss scientist converted into an AI using '70s computer tech was awesome, but totally wasted. I love the idea of decades-old superscience (that was one of my favorite parts of the first Captain America movie), aaaaaand he had a two-minute conversation with Cap and Black Widow and then allowed himself to get blown up. Ugh. They totally should have made him part of The Team for the climax — he's pissed about being shut up in a bunker and ignored for decades, and is willing to help stop Hydra in exchange for something to do. He can be the voice on comms announcing "two minutes to the deadline" or whatever for the rest of the movie. Seriously, such a cool idea and they did nothing with it!

I sort of feel like this movie doesn't belong this early in the MCU. The idea of SHIELD self-destructing and going from the stalwart defenders of Earth to struggling to survive is pretty compelling, but you've got to properly establish them as a powerful organization first. Set it sometime after the next Avengers movie, where they have a major effect on repelling some galactic-scale threat. In both movies that SHIELD played a major role in so far (The Avengers and Winter Soldier), they ended up being their own biggest threat and a good part of the movie was "SHIELD vs SHIELD", so it just comes off as them being incompetent rather than them being up against impossible odds. If you actually let them establish themselves as a major force for good, then taking them away and leaving Earth vulnerable is much more powerful.

Overall, I'd call Winter Soldier "okay". I'd put it above both Thor movies (the first being a fundamentally boring story, the second being mostly soulless), but below Iron Man 3 (which had two genuinely interesting stories, but stumbled by trying to tell them both at once). For those of you keeping track at home, that leaves the order so far as (best) the first two Iron Mans, the first Captain America, The Avengers, (cutoff for "good movie"), Iron Man 3, Winter Soldier, (cutoff for "alright movie"), both Thors, The Incredible Hulk (worst).

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#84970: Apr 19th 2018 at 7:59:02 PM

Why would Zola betray HYDRA? He's been around since the Red Skull days and is the whole reason HYDRA still exists as a tumor inside Shield. HE set the whole Project Insight scheme up.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#84971: Apr 19th 2018 at 8:03:30 PM

That's actually a very good point regarding conspiracy plotlines. I'd never really thought about it before.

edited 19th Apr '18 8:03:52 PM by LordVatek

This song needs more love.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84972: Apr 19th 2018 at 8:07:11 PM

Man, you're gonna get a lot of hate for not thinking Winter Soldier is the best thing since sliced bread and the bee's knees.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#84973: Apr 19th 2018 at 8:07:35 PM

Winter Soldier is actually considered one of the better MCU films by most people. I would...definitely not put Iron Man 3 above it, mostly because that film really shits the bed towards the end. Also Killian is by far one of the worst MCU villains.

It's actually the film that made me give the MCU a second try. After feeling lukewarm on or outright disliking most of the Phase 1 films besides Iron Man, I had basically decided it wasn't my thing and had moved on. But I decided to give it a shot and ended up rather liking it, so.

[up]Nah. It's not the end of the world or anything :p

edited 19th Apr '18 8:12:29 PM by Draghinazzo

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84974: Apr 19th 2018 at 8:09:42 PM

Personally, I would put Iron Man 3 above it. I have for a while now, pretty much for the same reasons they mentioned.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#84975: Apr 19th 2018 at 8:11:07 PM

...so, my main original laughter was because you weren’t sure whether winter soldier would be as silly as Thor. It is not. While I share a few of your reservations re: Hydra conspiracy, I think the film is overall tightly written, with great characterization, solid action scenes that move the plot forward, and a great emotional core.

My biggest complaint about the movie overall is actually the action. The first Captain America was very down to earth and practical — he carried a gun in addition to his shield and did very little in the way of acrobatics or showy moves. It was all very straightforward and to the point, even with the shield-ricochet trick shot shenanigans. In contrast, Winter Soldier was nothing but ridiculous spinkicks and pointless backflips.

This makes sense in universe. In CA: TFA, no one trains Steve. He’s with the military, yeah, but all he knows is basic punching etc. In CA: TWS, he’s been awake for a couple years, and he’s had lots of time to learn various martial arts. It’d be silly if he DIDN’T improve/expand his fighting style.

There was little about them that was interesting or added anything but "hey, look at our huge choreography budget", and virtually all of them dragged on too long. Hell, the first big scene was Cap going four or five rounds of fisticuffs with a normal dude, despite having thrown people twenty feet with one kick in earlier scenes. (Remember what I said about continuity?)

Not sure which fight you’re referring to? Who did he go 4-5 rounds of fisticuffs with?

I don't give a shit about Bucky. Yes, I know, Cap is very sad about the whole thing. I don't care. The entire thing left me cold.

...you may need to go to the doctor and have her check whether you’ve got a soul. tongue Yeah, it’s just his best friend from childhood, basically his brother, and now his only connection to the 40s. Why would that be at all poignant?

Movie wasn't all bad, though! Cap's new friend with the rocket-wing suit was cool.

Sam Wilson, AKA the Falcon, is a goddamn treasure.

Zola joining the team is patently absurd. He started as a Nazi/Hydra jerk, he actively infiltrated SHIELD and had people murdered, he wrote an algorithm to enable the murder of millions- no WAY should he be joining the team. No. Absolutely not.

edited 19th Apr '18 8:13:23 PM by wisewillow


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