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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#84901: Apr 19th 2018 at 8:44:47 AM

I don't know what to think about Renner. I remember his Bourne film being pretty shit but I'm not sure if that was him or the writing.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
123tbones Since: Aug, 2015
#84902: Apr 19th 2018 at 8:45:55 AM

[up][up] [up]and last time I checked he was sending condoms and dead rats to the Avengers.

edited 19th Apr '18 8:46:21 AM by 123tbones

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#84903: Apr 19th 2018 at 8:48:07 AM

I'm going to need context for that because what the heck?

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#84905: Apr 19th 2018 at 8:53:47 AM

OHHH

I thought you meant Jensen Ackles

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#84906: Apr 19th 2018 at 9:12:33 AM

I thought they were referring to comics Hawkeye for some reason and my first thought was "wow, superhero comics got weird. " But no, that's... actually something a real human being did. Lovely.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#84907: Apr 19th 2018 at 9:39:47 AM

Let's just say that Jared Leto not only established himself as the worst Joker, but a terrible person to work with, too.

All in all, I like the casting decisions of Marvel, though. At least for the hero characters. Not sure who is doing the picking, but he or she is doing an excellent job. I mean, it is not like they simply picked well-known actors a lot of them grew with the MCU.

TheAirman Brightness from The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Brightness
#84908: Apr 19th 2018 at 9:49:54 AM

I do occasionally find myself wondering where this franchise would be if RDJ hadn’t been cast as Tony. Also where RDJ would be.

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#84909: Apr 19th 2018 at 9:52:28 AM

Apparently Jensen Ackles was a finalist for Hawkeye?

We dodged a bullet there. I've got no love for Renner but I've never seen Ackles in anything good.

Anyway an additional problem with Hawkeye is that three movies in, they still haven't done a very good job of actually justifying his presence. He did get some cool moments in Age of Ultron though. But he was basically already starting from a negative in the first Avengers and that only got worse as even more fantastic characters began joining the universe.

edited 19th Apr '18 9:53:20 AM by comicwriter

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#84910: Apr 19th 2018 at 9:53:07 AM

Who knows....but if they had cast an actor less talented in improvisation than RDJ, Ironman might have failed at the box office and then the MCU might not even exist. So, let's not go there.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#84911: Apr 19th 2018 at 10:09:00 AM

MCU Hawkeye and 616 comics Hawkeye are very different on a conceptual level.

MCU Hawkeye is based in the idea that the Team Normal amongst the group of “gods” is thus the most stable and responsible for keeping everyone else grounded.

Comics Hawkeye is based in the idea that the Team Normal would be the most ridiculously overachieving and messed up in order to keep up amongst gods.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84912: Apr 19th 2018 at 10:14:40 AM

Hawkeye also often serves as the underestimated/overlooked last man standing that can get one over on an overpowered threat

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#84913: Apr 19th 2018 at 10:23:32 AM

Trying to think how to phrase this:

So, I've liked Renner's Hawkeye well enough. I did like the take on the comics Hawkeye in EMH, where he's basically as big of a jerk (or more) as Tony but without the intelligence and other benefits. And naturally, something of a Butt-Monkey to make him entertaining. But I don't really think this take would have been good in the MCU movies, especially given my complaints about Whedon overplaying the idea of the Avengers as abrasive people who hate each other.

And I do think that Renner's version could take on some of the aspects of the Fraccion take on the comics Hawkeye,and I'd be interested in seeing that.

However, with that said, it might just be a selection bias, since it's on Reddit, but I get this undertone when people obsess about Hawkeye on Reddit and complain about his lack of presence, that it's kind of imprinting on him because he's a comparably mediocre white guy. Like I suspect that the people who want him to be able to save the day on his own would not be happy with Black Widow doing the same even though the two basically have the same powers. Or any other character for that matter. But I think especially any one that isn't a white male. And it seems like something specific to Hawkeye too, becuse Scott Lang doesn't get that kind of treatment.

Like I don't have an issue with the Hawkeye character and I don't think anyone here is a fan of Hawkeye for those reasons, but the Reddit "Team Hawkeye" stuff has kind of put me off of interest in him doing something cool in Infinity War.

edited 19th Apr '18 10:26:31 AM by Hodor2

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#84914: Apr 19th 2018 at 10:29:11 AM

[up]Scott is less mediocre than Hawkeye because he has a cool-looking suit that gives him awesome powers, a rad ant army, and his actor is a bit more charismatic, so if we were to go along with your example it's harder to project onto him that way in comparison.

I haven't noticed the phenomenon you're describing, but my interaction with fans of the MCU is pretty limited outside of these forums so I wouldn't be surprised if it was a real thing.

edited 19th Apr '18 10:29:19 AM by Draghinazzo

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#84915: Apr 19th 2018 at 10:30:04 AM

All the “where’s Hawkeye” clamor has annoyed me. He’s... meh at best. Lots of women and Po C are FINALLY getting focus, so “where’s Hawkeye” strikes me as... suspect.

Also a deaf Hawkeye would have been great. But noooo.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#84916: Apr 19th 2018 at 10:30:42 AM

I don’t mind what he’s done in the films, so much as he’s kind of boring - he doesn’t really have the charm of the comics’ Hawkeye, particularly the Fraction run.

Oh God! Natural light!
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#84917: Apr 19th 2018 at 10:31:08 AM

You're correct about that. I remember there being so many fanworks about Hawkeye after the first movie and I was just floored that people were so overly invested in this cipher of a character. That's part of the reason why so many fans flipped out over the revelation that he had a wife and kids in the sequel; messed up all those intricate headcanons.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84918: Apr 19th 2018 at 10:34:44 AM

Also people were really invested in Clintasha

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#84919: Apr 19th 2018 at 11:44:50 AM

It does bug me when I see so many people on Reddit saying that Black Widow and Hawkeye are similarly useless relative to the other superheroes, as if their skillsets are comparable. They're focusing too heavily on raw power level comparisons and ignoring that Widow's spying skillset means that she's able to fulfill quite a few valuable non-direct combat roles when on a team, and that there's plenty of ways of generating narrative tension this way. Superhero movies aren't nonstop action sequences, and your worth on the Avengers isn't based solely on how hard you can punch Thanos.

Widow I can easily see them finding a continued need for even as other more powerful characters join the fray. Hawkeye on the other hand has the most niche of niche abilities, and therefore is harder to justify as an active member of a team, as most of his narrative value going forward seems to come from his emotional quotient (see how Civil War's storylines for him were about the fatherly sense of protectiveness he feels towards Wanda, and the deleted storyline about his ability to sympathize with Bucky as a fellow victim of brainwashing).

[up],[up][up] Yep, that too. A lot of his biggest fans were various flavors of shipper, originally Clint/Coulson for some reason and then mostly Clintasha, not so much because he was deep and fascinating per se as because he worked well as an O.C. Stand-in when it comes to writing that kind of thing.

edited 19th Apr '18 11:47:38 AM by AlleyOop

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#84920: Apr 19th 2018 at 11:59:31 AM

Hawkeye also often serves as the underestimated/overlooked last man standing that can get one over on an overpowered threat

Once again, he defeated the Grandmaster and saved the universe with a simple carny game and a solid understanding of the latter's nature.

One Strip! One Strip!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#84921: Apr 19th 2018 at 12:00:54 PM

Hasn't Hawkeye been in the focus of, well, I hesitate to use the word but "identity politics" fits it the most I guess, since they decided to use him as a way to demonstrate how patently ridiculous the poses of female heroines are?

Anyway, I never bought into the notion that him or Black Widow being less powerful automatically makes them useless. Their skill-set does have a place, I mean, even in an army you don't have a bunch of soldiers who all have the same level of skills either, just some basic level, and I think being able to ALWAYS hit your target is a good enough skill set, even if you use your bow.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#84922: Apr 19th 2018 at 12:08:58 PM

He also punked Loki with an explosive.

And once again, there's this little moment.

He saved the whole frigging universe by being willing to cheat and outsmarted an elder of the universe, and he deserves respect.

One Strip! One Strip!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84923: Apr 19th 2018 at 12:15:26 PM

Hawkeye: punker of Elders

He beat the Collector with a sweet bank shot once.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#84924: Apr 19th 2018 at 12:16:16 PM

The first Avengers did a good job of showcasing him as a powerhouse. Age of Ultron, I don’t remember any particularly badass feats from him.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84925: Apr 19th 2018 at 12:19:07 PM

He punked Wanda Witch

That's something

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

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