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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
One thing I will say in favour of Whedon's Natasha is that (perhaps unknowingly) she's coded as autistic pretty well, and both the character and Scar Jo lend themselves to it surprisingly well.
It does make me a little sad that it's not all that present in how the russio brothers write her.
In the avenger films? Her tone of voice, overall literal language, use of mimicry/parroting even when it's not useful, lack of social finesse outside of when she's masking for her job.
I could go on, but I'd rather not talk over actually autistic women who could explain it better than me.
edited 7th Apr '18 5:26:32 AM by Whowho
Whedon created the interrogation scene which effectively rescued her from the scrappy heap. I am not sure how he went so wrong in Ao S, but he made her a popular character in the first place.
This is how I rank BW's writing in all the films, from best to worst:
- Winter Soldier (Genuine Superspy)
- Civil War (Solid part of the team)
- Avengers (Some decent scenes but the movie runs out of things for her to do)
- Age of Ultron (poorly handled romance)
- Iron Man 2 (Juvenile and basically just treated like sex appeal)
So while Avengers was an improvement on IM 2 it basically couldn't not be because her appearance in IM 2 is so pathetic (merely a part of how that movie is pathetic in general).
edited 7th Apr '18 7:15:55 AM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"I'm surprised you rated Civil War so high for her. I was fairly disappointed that her role and characterision was such a step down from Winter Soldier.
I do like "I told you I'd help you find him, not capture him, th-there's a difference" is a good line, and almost feels like a nice middle ground between Winter Soldier Nat and Avengers Assemble Nat.
I think those two movies are fairly even. In The Winter Soldier she has the big advantage of being the Co-lead. That is one thing I really love about the movie, that she gets the role of the war buddy while Falcon gets the role you would normally give the love interest. Anyway, all this means more screen time and a genuine arc for herself, which culminates in her destroying all her mask, basically doing the most heroic and against her nature thing she could do (even if she starts to create new ones immediately after).
In both The Avengers and Civil War, she has a mini arc (wanting to rescue Clint und being able to connect to a team even though it is against her nature to do so and wanting to rescue the team no matter what but finally deciding that she can't "gauge the terrain" anymore and needs to take a stance even though it is against her nature - yeah, this is a running theme with her), but because there are so many other characters and the main focus is on Steve and Tony anyway, she kind of gets lost in the shuffle. (There is a reason why I really want a movie just about her, because I do think her character is interesting if they focus on the now and not on the past).
In Age of Ultron she has a arc, but it is a terrible one, because it is tied up in this creepy romance and I still feel that the scene of her pushing Bruce into the Hulk would have been more powerful if she had done it as a team member instead of love interest, thus making the betrayal the betrayal of an Avenger.
In Ironman 2 she is undercover all the time, hence I am actually kind of okay with the audience not really learning much about her character. I am NOT okay with the gracious sexualisation of her, especially the idiotic scene when she redresses in the back of the car. For the record: A nylon anything is very uncomfortable to do any kind of sport in and no woman ever stretches her leg in the air to put it on.
Yeah I agree that TWS has the best Natasha characterization to date. I'd say Avengers and TWS as a tandem is what really sold me on wanting to see a Black Widow solo film.
IM 2 is by far the worst imo. I mean Scarlett tried to make it work so kudos to her at least. But my biggest problem with IM 2 Natasha, is that she feels largely superfluous. There's nothing that she does in that film that necessitated it being Black Widow in that role. You could have replaced her with some random undercover SHIELD agent and nothing really changes.
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Well, she has the badass hallway fight....which technically predates all the hallway fight scene in the MCU. And is in a weird way one of my favourite moments of the movie. So there is that.
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If not for the scene in the end, I would agree with you. But that the movie remember in the last moment that Natasha will always be the one to make the hard decisions kind of puts it over the gracious sexualisation in Ironman 2.
Whether you think IM 2 or Ao U treats Nat worse depends on whether you consider the skeevy fanservice and being part of the movie's bloat worse than a completely forced and sexist romance.
I'd consider Ao U worse mostly because writers are still having to clean up after Whedon's mess with that stupid romance.
Good point....but I guess we can agree that there is little to criticise about how Natasha is portrayed in The Avengers, The Winter Soldier and Civil War but a lot about the way she is used in Ao U and Ironman 2. And considering that the writing team for Infinity war is the same we got for The Winter Solder and Civil War I am not particularly worried.
Is it very spoilery? I don't want to watch the TV spots in order to not know too much, but that one looks very tempting.....
edited 7th Apr '18 10:01:44 AM by Swanpride
I liked someone's suggestion on Reddit that The Stinger shows Okoye sitting at a Starbucks and enjoying a Frappuccino while surrounded by rubble.
I also had the idea of a stinger showing Bucky working at Wakanda's first Starbucks with the other Avengers there/in line. Scott whispers to someone that "Baskin Robbins always finds out".
edited 7th Apr '18 10:32:42 AM by Hodor2

Mmmm M&m's
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Sorry,I couldn't resist
edited 7th Apr '18 4:24:47 AM by Ultimatum
have a listen and have a link to my discord server