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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#84251: Apr 7th 2018 at 4:15:18 AM

Mmmm M&m's

[up]

Sorry,I couldn't resist

edited 7th Apr '18 4:24:47 AM by Ultimatum

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#84253: Apr 7th 2018 at 5:11:01 AM

One thing I will say in favour of Whedon's Natasha is that (perhaps unknowingly) she's coded as autistic pretty well, and both the character and Scar Jo lend themselves to it surprisingly well.

It does make me a little sad that it's not all that present in how the russio brothers write her.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#84254: Apr 7th 2018 at 5:12:45 AM

..how is she coded autistic?

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#84255: Apr 7th 2018 at 5:25:37 AM

In the avenger films? Her tone of voice, overall literal language, use of mimicry/parroting even when it's not useful, lack of social finesse outside of when she's masking for her job.

I could go on, but I'd rather not talk over actually autistic women who could explain it better than me.

edited 7th Apr '18 5:26:32 AM by Whowho

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#84256: Apr 7th 2018 at 5:33:36 AM

Whedon created the interrogation scene which effectively rescued her from the scrappy heap. I am not sure how he went so wrong in Ao S, but he made her a popular character in the first place.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#84257: Apr 7th 2018 at 5:47:14 AM

not sure if he rescued her or made the scrappy heap bigger to honest,given her romance with Bruce

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#84258: Apr 7th 2018 at 5:58:19 AM

Keep in mind that the romance with Bruce didn't happen until 2015, there was three solid years where people considered Whedon to have rescued Nat from blandness.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#84259: Apr 7th 2018 at 7:14:44 AM

This is how I rank BW's writing in all the films, from best to worst:

  1. Winter Soldier (Genuine Superspy)
  2. Civil War (Solid part of the team)
  3. Avengers (Some decent scenes but the movie runs out of things for her to do)
  4. Age of Ultron (poorly handled romance)
  5. Iron Man 2 (Juvenile and basically just treated like sex appeal)

So while Avengers was an improvement on IM 2 it basically couldn't not be because her appearance in IM 2 is so pathetic (merely a part of how that movie is pathetic in general).

edited 7th Apr '18 7:15:55 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#84260: Apr 7th 2018 at 7:44:57 AM

I'm surprised you rated Civil War so high for her. I was fairly disappointed that her role and characterision was such a step down from Winter Soldier.

I do like "I told you I'd help you find him, not capture him, th-there's a difference" is a good line, and almost feels like a nice middle ground between Winter Soldier Nat and Avengers Assemble Nat.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#84261: Apr 7th 2018 at 8:12:49 AM

I would put Avengers Natasha over CW Natasha myself. I was not that impressed with the writing for her in CW to be honest. It wasn't BAD per se, but it was nothing special, and such a step down from Avengers and TWS.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#84262: Apr 7th 2018 at 8:50:54 AM

I think those two movies are fairly even. In The Winter Soldier she has the big advantage of being the Co-lead. That is one thing I really love about the movie, that she gets the role of the war buddy while Falcon gets the role you would normally give the love interest. Anyway, all this means more screen time and a genuine arc for herself, which culminates in her destroying all her mask, basically doing the most heroic and against her nature thing she could do (even if she starts to create new ones immediately after).

In both The Avengers and Civil War, she has a mini arc (wanting to rescue Clint und being able to connect to a team even though it is against her nature to do so and wanting to rescue the team no matter what but finally deciding that she can't "gauge the terrain" anymore and needs to take a stance even though it is against her nature - yeah, this is a running theme with her), but because there are so many other characters and the main focus is on Steve and Tony anyway, she kind of gets lost in the shuffle. (There is a reason why I really want a movie just about her, because I do think her character is interesting if they focus on the now and not on the past).

In Age of Ultron she has a arc, but it is a terrible one, because it is tied up in this creepy romance and I still feel that the scene of her pushing Bruce into the Hulk would have been more powerful if she had done it as a team member instead of love interest, thus making the betrayal the betrayal of an Avenger.

In Ironman 2 she is undercover all the time, hence I am actually kind of okay with the audience not really learning much about her character. I am NOT okay with the gracious sexualisation of her, especially the idiotic scene when she redresses in the back of the car. For the record: A nylon anything is very uncomfortable to do any kind of sport in and no woman ever stretches her leg in the air to put it on.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#84263: Apr 7th 2018 at 8:56:48 AM

Yeah I agree that TWS has the best Natasha characterization to date. I'd say Avengers and TWS as a tandem is what really sold me on wanting to see a Black Widow solo film.

IM 2 is by far the worst imo. I mean Scarlett tried to make it work so kudos to her at least. But my biggest problem with IM 2 Natasha, is that she feels largely superfluous. There's nothing that she does in that film that necessitated it being Black Widow in that role. You could have replaced her with some random undercover SHIELD agent and nothing really changes.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#84264: Apr 7th 2018 at 8:59:47 AM

IM 2 isn’t great for Natasha, but Ao U is worse in my personal opinion. She gets damseled, for God’s sake. She’s forced into the Girl teammate roles and I hate it.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#84265: Apr 7th 2018 at 9:07:00 AM

As I've stated before, I disagree with a lot of the criticisms of AOU Natasha. I will however agree that her getting captured was not good, mostly because I don't buy the reasoning for it nor do I buy that she couldn't have escaped on her own.

And honestly, it would have been really easy to fix.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#84266: Apr 7th 2018 at 9:19:47 AM

[up][up][up] Well, she has the badass hallway fight....which technically predates all the hallway fight scene in the MCU. And is in a weird way one of my favourite moments of the movie. So there is that.

[up][up] If not for the scene in the end, I would agree with you. But that the movie remember in the last moment that Natasha will always be the one to make the hard decisions kind of puts it over the gracious sexualisation in Ironman 2.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#84267: Apr 7th 2018 at 9:32:14 AM

Whether you think IM 2 or Ao U treats Nat worse depends on whether you consider the skeevy fanservice and being part of the movie's bloat worse than a completely forced and sexist romance.

I'd consider Ao U worse mostly because writers are still having to clean up after Whedon's mess with that stupid romance.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#84269: Apr 7th 2018 at 10:00:54 AM

Good point....but I guess we can agree that there is little to criticise about how Natasha is portrayed in The Avengers, The Winter Soldier and Civil War but a lot about the way she is used in Ao U and Ironman 2. And considering that the writing team for Infinity war is the same we got for The Winter Solder and Civil War I am not particularly worried.

[up] Is it very spoilery? I don't want to watch the TV spots in order to not know too much, but that one looks very tempting.....

edited 7th Apr '18 10:01:44 AM by Swanpride

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#84270: Apr 7th 2018 at 10:02:25 AM

I'm just imagining Okoye and Shuri going to a random Starbucks in Wakanda now and shooting the breeze.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#84271: Apr 7th 2018 at 10:06:24 AM

Oh wow, if Okoye is really making a crack at the whole "we open up Wakanda to the world and the first thing that happens is an alien invasion because Vision is hiding at our place" like that one tweet...

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#84272: Apr 7th 2018 at 10:12:09 AM

IM 2 was way worse for Natasha. AOU is trying to give her stuff to do, simply failing miserably. IM 2 treats her basically like a punchline.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#84273: Apr 7th 2018 at 10:15:26 AM

[up][up][up]There was a joke in the comics about Killmonger trying to get a Disney park built in Wakanda after he took the throne.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#84274: Apr 7th 2018 at 10:32:15 AM

I liked someone's suggestion on Reddit that The Stinger shows Okoye sitting at a Starbucks and enjoying a Frappuccino while surrounded by rubble.

I also had the idea of a stinger showing Bucky working at Wakanda's first Starbucks with the other Avengers there/in line. Scott whispers to someone that "Baskin Robbins always finds out".

edited 7th Apr '18 10:32:42 AM by Hodor2

DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#84275: Apr 7th 2018 at 11:02:05 AM

Okoye at a Starbucks would be a hilarious stinger. Either that or her at the Olympics. She deserves at least one of the things she was expecting when Wakanda opened itself to the world, especially after this crazy alien invasion, dangit. [lol]

When we're done, there won't be anything left.

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